Normandy, Argonne Forest, Anzio, and Iwo Jima are all names that many Americans recognize as American military campaigns.
Lesser known campaigns are recognized in the names Peleliu, Biak, and Khe Sahn. There is an unfortunate possibility that the names Mischief Reef, Parcells and Woody Reef might enter the American lexicon of battlefields. The last three names are all within the South China Sea (SCS), a Mediterranean sized body of water bounded by China, Vietnam, Malaysia and the Philippines. Why might the US and China fight over a body of water far, far away? (Except for our Japanese and Korean bridgeheads.) The SCS is a hot topic. Recently “Foreign Policy” and “Foreign Affairs” have both weighed in, as well as many other authors. So what the heck, here is a primer from me. This little bit of writing will hopefully help the Glibertariat to understand some of the issues and to be able to engage with others on what the US’s policy options are.
So who are the players on this game board?
The biggest by far is China and primarily the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), Chinese Sea Police (aka Coast Guard), the People’s Armed Force Maritime Militia (PAFMM) and the People’s Liberation Army Rocket Force (PLARF). China is also has one of the world’s largest merchant marine fleets and uses the SCS to bring and send resources and products to every continent.
The PLAN is executing the world’s most extensive and aggressive fleet expansion and modernization campaigns. It is estimated that by 2020 the PLAN will be the 2d largest navy in the world as counted by tonnage and frigate and larger warships. The PLAN will exceed the USN in the number of combatants. The PLAN is beginning to execute extended blue water operations, determining how to make carrier groups effective warfighting tools, and executing submarine operations well beyond their coastal water. Their stated goal is to be capable of conducting “regional offensive operations” and they currently are part of the combined anti-piracy effort off of Somalia. The PLAN also has two brigades of Marines, with a third being formed. All these units are on Hainan Island or the adjacent mainland coastal region.
The PLAAF is fielding large numbers of modern 4th generation aircraft that can go toe to toe with many US aircraft and outperform Taiwanese aircraft. The PLAAF is preparing to field significant numbers of 5th generation aircraft as well. Like the PLAN they are expanding and modernizing faster than any other nation. It appears that they are also loosening combat control of their formations to enable pilots to use more initiative. The PLAAF is already large and still growing under recent PRC military reorganization.
The CSP is really a second navy but painted white instead of gray. The Chinese recently transferred control of the CSP from the police to the military. The CSP is by far the largest coast guard on the planet and its largest ships are the size of US guided missile cruisers. The CSP operates throughout the SCS and not just around Chinese made features conducting both traditional coast guard missions and para-military operations.
The PAFMM is a newer and less understood military component. They are almost unique in the world with the primary mission to engage in gray zone operations to frustrate effective response by the other parties involved. These vessels can be purpose built or much more frequently are reconfigured otherwise “civil” vessels. The PAFMM are widely seen participating in low-intensity coercion during maritime disputes including harassing or ramming vessels from other nations and even occupying disputed maritime features.
The PLARF controls Chinese tactical to strategic, conventional and nuclear, rockets and missiles. Doctrinally the PLARF conducts deterrence, compellence, and coercive operations. In the event that deterrence fails, the missions of a conventional missile strike campaign could include “launching firepower strikes against important targets in the enemy’s campaign and strategic deep areas.” including command centers, communications hubs, radar stations, guided missile positions, air force and naval facilities, transport and logistical facilities, fuel depots, electrical power centers, and aircraft carrier strike groups. Writers also stress that, “In all, Chinese military writings on conventional missile campaigns stress the importance of surprise and suggest a preference for preemptive strikes.” Preemptive missile strikes to initiate active hostilities are also consistent with China’s overall military strategy of “active defense.” Leaving aside strategic nuclear weapons, China has more conventional missiles than any other nation and is not signatory to the IMF. By being free of the IMF China is not constrained to distances and methods like the US (and Russia). The PLARF like the rest of the PLA believes that “quantity is a quality itself” and so their missiles are in greater numbers, shoot longer distances and with bigger warheads than other nations. Recently they have started fielding the DF-26 which can range Guam from the Chinese mainland with both conventional and nuclear warheads. The PLARF makes no bones about their possible targets since their interior China test range uses model US airfields, ships and ports for targeting.
It is useful to remember that the term “deterrence” is used differently by the US/West and China. To us “deterrence” means taking actions to prevent another party from taking an action. So actions taken to keep the peace. To the Chinese “deterrence” means the use of force to stop another party from continuing an action. This mismatch in definitions could lead to a dangerous situation.
The People’s Liberation Army (PLA) is a relatively minor player in the SCS. They are undergoing a large scale modernization campaign. The PLA is also reducing in size as the other components are growing. Ground pounders are less of a player
The second player in the SCS is the Republic of China (aka Taiwan). Their armed forces are small in number and nowhere as modern as the PRC’s new equipment. Taiwan’s F-16’s are capable, but there are too few of them to make much difference. The Taiwanese most likely would try to sit out any SCS brouhaha that does not directly impact them since any active participation would invite a major PRC attack or an invasion of Taiwan.
The third major players are the Philippines, Malaysia and Vietnam. They have smaller militaries than China, but have intense economic interests in the SCS. None of them has the mass or modern enough equipment to take on a concerted PRC effort in the SCS. Vietnam has demonstrated a long history of challenging the PRC while the PI has weakened their opposition under Duerte. Despite winning their legal challenge the PI’s President has been very friendly with Xi and the PRC.
The fourth major player is the United States. Since our founding the United States has fought multiple wars over freedom of the seas, both declared and undeclared. We have naval forces and aircraft that operate within the SCS for freedom of navigation (FONOPS) and intelligence reasons. While we have no permanent military installations within the Philippines we do have Special Operations, Ground, Air and Maritime forces operating throughout the country on a regular basis. Our attack submarine force is very advanced, but the SCS is not a great operating area. We, and several other countries, conduct FONOPS around the multiple features and we have been known to send one or more complete Carrier Groups through the Formosa Strait to deliver a point.
These operations are not without risk. During the early days of the Bush the Younger administration, a P-3 and a Chinese J-8 bumped over the SCS. The J-8 was destroyed (the pilot died) and the P-3 made an emergency landing in the PRC on Hainan Island. After much brouhaha we got the crew back and eventually most of the P-3 shipped back in crates. More recently we had military aircraft, surface combat ships and support ships repeatedly harassed and threatened with unsafe maneuvers by Chinese aircraft and vessels. The latest that made the news was in October and involved the USS Decatur and a PLAN destroyer near Gaven Reefs which are claimed by Vietnam, China and the Philippines and are located approximately 1000km from China’s Hainan Island.
FONOPS also cause debate within the international defense community. Some regard FONOPS as too provocative, while others regard them as too timid. The two camps arguments can be summarized. The provocative camp says why twist the dragon’s tail and ruin negotiations? The too timid camp’s thrust is that 12 mile nautical free passage FONOPS are granting recognition for rights that don’t exist under international law. Therefore FONOPS undercut the correct legal position that the features are not islands so have no exclusionary or economic zones. Under this viewpoint we could sail as close as we want while conducting military operations and be fully lawful.
Other regional nations with a considerable interest in the SCS are Japan, Republic of Korea and Australia because of the importance of the SCS in trade and seaborne transportation. Japan is more concerned with their disputes with China over the East China Seas and islands. While the Japanese does have a Self Defense Force with modern equipment, the SCS is only a secondary issue until the Chinese shut free transit of vessels. The ROK concentrates on the Norks and their view of the SCS mirror Japans concerns. Australia sits outside the island chains and has more concern over free access and Chinese interests in New Guinea and the Solomon Islands. (Say hello to the Guadalcanal Campaign V2.0?)
What does SCS playing board look like?
The SCS is a salt water sea bounded at the north by Taiwan, the south by the Strait of Malacca area the east by the “first island chain and on the west by mainland Asia. For an idea of scale the SCS, less the Gulf of Thailand, is roughly 1.4 times the size of the Mediterranean with China claiming sovereignty over almost the entire space. They are doing this through the “nine dash line” and construction. “The nine dash line” is the PRC’s claimed area of sovereignty and reaches throughout the SCS, at times encroaching on the 12 mile limits of the various states.
“The first island chain” stretches from the Japanese home islands, through the Ryukus (home of US military bases on Okinawa), Taiwan, the Philippines, Borneo and closing at the Strait of Malacca. The Chinese view this as “their” lake and their military publications stress the first island chain as the area it must secure and disable from American bases, aircraft and aircraft carrier groups. The PLA states that within this area it must be prepared to tactically unleash pre-emptive strikes against an enemy with the aim of sealing off the SCS and ECS.
“The second island chain” stretches through the Japanese home islands, the US territory of Guam and the Northern Mariana Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia and to New Guinea and the Solomon Islands. This is the area that the PRC wants to achieve maritime and air dominance over to provide a buffer zone for the SCS and mainland.
Sea lanes, fish and oil. These three things are a large part of the why the PRC and the neighboring nations are squabbling about the SCS. Fifty percent of all the oil shipped in the world transits the SCS; the bulk of the rest of the world’s maritime traffic moves through the SCS (the America’s), or the SCS and the Strait of Malacca to get to/from, India, Africa, Europe and the Middle East. Over half of the planet’s population lives in nations near or adjacent to the SCS. The SCS is one of the last great fishing grounds so everybody is interested in this source of protein. And that brings us to oil. There are large known or suspected oil fields in the SCS and the nation that controls them will gain a regional advantage. By not having to bring oil from the far side of the planet makes this resource cheaper to use or sell.
The fisheries in the SCS provide ~12-14% of all the commercially caught fish on the planet. China harvests ~73% of all the fish they consume or sell from the SCS. If you buy Chinese seafood you have most probably consumed animals harvested from the SCS. While there is some oil production in the SCS the fisheries are the here and now reason why the Nations surrounding the SCS all are concerned about China’s claims.
Twelve and 200 nautical miles. International law states that a nation has sovereignty over large bodies of water out to 12 nautical miles. That means that they can regulate “innocent passage” and in some cases prohibit transit of vessels and aircraft which are not registered to that nation out to that distance. After that distance the water (and air above it) is open for the transit of any user, and for nation permitted commercial uses. So a Russian or Chinese “oceanic research vessel” with a forest of antennas can hover 13 miles off of Cape Cod or Los Angeles with no legal objection. By the same token a US Navy carrier strike group can transit the Formosa Strait between the PRC mainland coast and Taiwan. Commercial aviation also makes use of this legal principle all over the world. So a Singapore Air flight from Singapore to Tokyo can overflight the SCS seeking without permission of anybody except for Japan. There are some exceptions to this law. Where there is less than 12 nautical miles the border is equidistant. For bays and gulfs the rules are a bit more convoluted. Ronald Reagan and Qudafi famously disagreed about this point in the Gulf of Sidra.
Why do we care about 200 nautical miles? This is the exclusive economic zone for a country over salty water. Within that space a nation controls the use of natural resources above, in, and below the water. They may reserve it for their exclusive use or set up means to regulate persons from other nations to use it. This is why both the UK and Norway control only parts of the North Sea oil fields and there are no French platforms. Like the 12 mile limit, if there isn’t 200 miles between nations the zone boundaries meet at the midline.
Shoals, Rocks, Islands and manmade features. See the illustration. The key point being that features must be naturally occurring and not manmade. Manmade features receive no mileage around them. China is taking shoals and rocks and constructing large manmade features within the SCS then claiming the features as islands and hence that the 12 and 200 miles laws apply. The map shows China is claiming all the oil and fish within the Nine Dash Line in the SCS. China’s opinion is that has exclusive use to the natural resources and it can close the SCS to maritime and aerial traffic. This has gotten the neighbors, and others like the USA, concerned because of the economic and free trade impacts. To be clear the Chinese have not announced any maritime exclusion or air defense zones, yet. They have claimed an air defense identification zone a bit farther north over the East China Sea which the US ignores and has stated it will not comply with.
The Chinese efforts are not small scale. They have created multiple square miles of “land” replete with jet capable runways, multiple military radars, missile farms and supporting structures. More worrisome is that over the last half decade the pace and scope on construction steadily increases.
At first the Chinese claimed the features were to aid navigation and search and rescue, now they openly fly modern fighters in and out of them and increase their arming of the features by adding modern radar systems, as well as anti-ship and anti-aircraft weaponry.
The Chinese actions in the SCS started in 1974 when it seized the Vietnamese claimed Parcell Islands. This led to a long term feud which culminated in 1988 when the Chinese machine gunned and killed 72 Viet fisherman and sunk two boats at South Johnson Reef. China continues to dispute Vietnamese claims and has multiple steps top block fishing and drilling. The PRC has carefully watched the international scene and in 2012 started making their move. First they seized Scarborough Shoal from the PI. They watched what the US would do and when they saw acquiescence from the Obama administration they moved to the next phase to construct new features. Their main dredger (the Tianjing) can dredge and hose out 4,530 cubic meters of soil per hour. They first used it at South Johnson Reef where it created an 11 hectare “island” in less than four months. Again the US, ASEAN and the West took no action. The Chinese started building at an ever increasing pace and now have seven features in the SCS.
Now these features have port facilities, military buildings, radar and sensor installations, hardened shelters for missiles, logistical warehouses for fuel, water and ammunition. Most tellingly these features now have heavy transport and military jet capable runways and airstrips and the PRC has landed these aircraft on them. The international tribunal ruled against China actions in 2016 and China ignored the ruling, again without any cost. Now the PRC has expanded their control further by strong-arming the other SCS nations into suspending the exploitation of natural resources within their own 200 mile exclusive economic zones. The new USINDOPACOM Commander during his confirmation hearings told the US Senate that for all practical purposes the PRC had won the race to develop a military capacity on these features in the SCS and now the US needs to determine the next steps to take.
Stay tuned for Part 2.
Wow. Thorough article and I eagerly await the rest of it.
The PRC is moving aggressively and have been for years. It also illustrates how much of the future is dictated by the past.
This whole situation seems eerily familiar.
Sparta and Athens….
So which ones are the backstabbing pederasts who rob their allies, and which ones are the brutal paranoiacs terrified of their slaves to the point their society falls into crippling stasis?
Yes?
and Khe Sahn – there’s a song in there somewhere
Here ya go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub7CRV8_e2g
Romania is considering buying 4 corvettes so PLAN better bit show their faces in the black sea is all I’m saying…
But China’s claims in that sea are ridiculous.
They operate under a simple principle… “who can, may.”
Teh Lightworker’s “pivot to Asia” appears to have been little more than bending over and grabbing the ankles.
And that’s the rub. They plan to keep pushing until someone reacts. And reaction will lead to war.
I’ll say it again. Unless your plans for the next war include shit tons of drones I think you are doomed.
Why do you need huge carriers dedicated to highly trained pilots and their bazillion dollar planes? If you have to, go ahead and have a carrier, but it should be stuffed with drones. The drone operators could be in Arizona or some other place and who cares if they get shot down or don’t return because they run out of gas?
Fuck, why not a sub that surfaces to launch drones and then submerges again?
Phase one of the generic war plan is always “Use standoff weapons to dismantle the air defense around target zone”.
Repurpose some ballistic nuclear missile subs with drone launchers? Shit, you could get a helluva lot of ordinance over target that way. Might need to withdraw from the space treaty to keep the satellites used for sending the feed to the “pilots” protected, but that’s a dumb treaty to begin with.
Also, if we ever get rail guns working, we need to figure out how to send rods from god.
Naval aviators will behave exactly like the battleship admirals did 100 years ago. They will fight the idea of drones tooth and nail because it makes them obsolete. Right now, they are the golden boys of the naval service.
Like the battleship admirals, I am worried that they will lose some important battles before the lessons of the next war are fully learned.
Of course they will.
Historically the military has been pretty good at adapting once their nose is rubbed in it. But with the new “woke” military as Commodious alludes to, I don’t know if that is the case or if it the first lesson won’t be more than can be recovered from.
Add in how incompetent the Navy is becoming…the story that was linked recently about utter incompetence of the officer’s on the ships that allowed themselves to be rammed…sounds like a recipe for disaster.
“Naval aviators will behave exactly like the battleship admirals did 100 years ago. They will fight the idea of drones tooth and nail because it makes them obsolete.”
Autonomous drones are not even close to being a thing. For the foreseeable future what we will have are pilots in aircraft coordinating/leading drone swarms. as part of a layered attack that will involve cruise/stealth missile strikes, drone attacks and ECM/ESM, and limited initial manned air strike participation to dismantle EW and AirDef capabilities. After that manned strikes might have more viability and be more necessary.
Me, I think we should invest in orbital bombardments with KEWs. We can tell everyone that if they cross the line we will just obliterate their defenses and their industrial capabilities from space.
The wife has this t-shirt: Relativistic Rock T-Shirt, complete with the math on the back.
You fubared the link CA!
I did Gilmore the link, didn’t I? It’s what happens when I’m on a system without monocle. Here:
https://www.nobleknight.com/P/2147597141/Ad-Astra-Games—Relativistic-Rock-T-Shirt
Kinetic orbital weapons are the bomb. Literally. And we can avoid using nukes and having to deal with the radiation.
Need more tanks !
Well, a cruise missile is just a drone with a kamikaze for a pilot, so this has already been done.
If we can get DEW (directed energy weapons) perfected, a sub could serve as a pop-up air defense node while releasing a swarm of death dealers.
It’s not the perfection, the laws of physics are pretty clear, but the cost to lift the material into orbit so you can drop it on people, that prevents these from being used in large enough quantities, yet.
This is why we need asteroid mining and a moon base. You get rid of having to haul shit up out of the gravity well to send your rods from god to target.
Yup.. Best and first thing I see from asteroid mining is the kinetic weapons we can create to make sure everyone plays nice or they get the hose.
But on to important considerations: how diverse is their navy? How many women do they admit into their special forces, and are they held to the same standards as male applicants? What’s their sensitivity training like? Are their marines ethnically representative? Do they have a DADT equivalent? Are illegal immigrants permitted to enlist, and can they earn citizenship that way? We can’t afford to be out-woked by the Chinese. They’re POC, so the gap is wide already.
The Chinese have the luxury of not allowing these PC bullshit things our modern military is now being dismantled with from affecting their military readiness. Instead their greatest problem is the massive corruption and bureaucratic miasma caused by top heavy totalitarian systems. People tend to forget China is still a communist bastion affected both by ancient bureaucratic tribalism & the inefficiencies of an oligarchy that runs things that doesn’t trust its military with too much power, and that all still drives crippling inefficiencies that impact both their military and economy (people that really believe China has seen 10% growth, every year, for decades, are fucking idiots, and the place has even bigger financial problems that we do).
Last time I was there, I watched “road crews” cutting the grass in the median on the highway with hand clippers.
Krugabe Jobs Plan?
Who needs automation when you have a billion sets of idle hands.
The smiling monkey beat me to it!
🙂
Indeed. For context, China has more people in its single country than the total in any single continent besides Asia (obviously). It’s crazy big.
When you have a communist state and so many people you need to employ, machinery & automation are job killers…
Not spoons?
People tend to forget China is still a communist bastion affected both by ancient bureaucratic tribalism & the inefficiencies of an oligarchy that runs things that doesn’t trust its military with too much power
It does seem that ever since Deng’s reforms China has abandoned communist ideology and reverted to a more traditional form, with the chairman playing the role of the emperor and the high-ranking party officials playing the role of the mandarins.
Practically every Chinese dynasty started as something different from its predecessors. But sooner or later the mode of operation gets indistinguishable from the 4.5-thousand-year norm. The Communist dynasty is no exception.
The Communist dynasty is no exception.
I like that term for the current regime. It’s quite appropriate.
*adds Flaming Phoenixes of the Special Forces to commodius’ watchlist*
More seriously, yes China does have women in their special forces in limited numbers:
https://youtu.be/jM5HrCadbQ4
Honey pots.
Yes. There’s quite a bit of military work you can use women for, even in active combat if you’re not beholden to typical Western views about how warfare should be conducted. Starting with it doesn’t really matter if you’re fielding trigger pulling cannon fodder in numbers.
Reality:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylB5EXnT3SA
What? It won’t be like https://youtu.be/cOBQgUZnceg?t=1m36s
This guy gets it.
Great article. You obviously did a lot of research. Good job.
Great article. It’s well written and has tons of information. Thanks for your hard work.
I know there is the old military adage that “quantity has its own quality” but I wonder about the true capabilities of the Chinese navy. Are they cranking out ships that are able to survive a modern naval battle? Or are they just cranking out ships that will be nothing but canon fodder?
Dan Carlin had an interesting discussion on this during his discussion of WWI. If I remember correctly, the problem was that technology progressed so quickly that battle ships were obsolete almost by the time they finished their first cruises.
Again, if you are building ships to fight the last war, you might be in for a rude surprise when the next war starts.
but who is building for the next war? most modern armies are kinda bureaucratic.
Can any ship survive in a modern battle? They all look paper-thin and will be dead if a live weapon makes it through the electronic / anti-missile defenses.
Ironically, the ships the Chinese were most worried about were our battleships before they were re-retired. None of the missiles designed to kill modern ships would even damage a battleship. And they could belch out accurate death with monster shells.
I’ve wondered that myself. My feeling is that a modern fleet to fleet surface engagement would be over fast with massive destruction on both sides. Or over fast with one side getting the jump and just obliterate the other side before they have a chance to respond.
So it goes to whoever has the better sensors and guidance (assuming no sneak attack)? I could see that.
Yep – Battleships and heavy cruisers were built to brawl – to take punishment and keep on dishing it out.
Carriers are the only modern ships that might keep floating after a decent hit. If it manages to launch most of it’s aircraft, it will at least be avenged.
Conversely, though, there are stories from the Battle of the Coral Sea of our destroyers (light armored, fast, high powered) surviving first contact with japanese because their guns were calibrated for our heavier ships…
The rounds passed right through the destroyers, doing much less damage.
I heard some crazy story of a mine sweeper getting turned to swiss cheese with 18″ shells, but none of them hit enough armor to detonate.
It’s the opposite today. Most our ships are tin foil and no weapons are designed to penetrate 14″ of battleship steel.
Armoring ships fell out of favor as missiles came into play, because you could cause enough damage with precision hits to neutralize an armored ship you couldn’t sink, making it a soft kill. Armoring ships has not come back because everyone knows it would lead to looking at armor penetrating tech (look at how we kill tanks) and a move to hyper-velocity weapons so enough kinetic energy is generated to make armor of any kind irrelevant.
Battleships and cruisers were designed so that the armored belts could hold out rounds of the same size as the largest armament on the vessel. (e.g. a ship with a 14 inch naval rifle was designed to resist a 14 inch shell). When you fired a shell the weight of a VW there was no stopping it. With missiles, defenses changed too stopping the missile in flight . The primary threat from missiles is secondary fires from fuels etc. Ships and fires are not good combos.
In a previous job, if the customer (usually a Chinese company) wanted Chinese steel, we used reduced (by 25%) strength numbers.
We had to have someone onsite to oversee installation. If the drawing called for a 30 mm hole, someone had to watch them drill the damn hole with a 30 mm drill bit. If you didn’t watch, they would flame cut it.
What I’m saying it that it was all shoddy,
Don’t order a Coke, either.
“Ooh, lemony…”
Happens all the time in the IoT world. People open a manufacturing line in China thinking all their new gizmos will be built dirt cheap. End up spending tons of $$ having engineers be on site to monitor quality. And tons of intellectual property is stolen and used by their new Chinese “competitors”.
I know of at least 5 local companies that moved manufacturing back from China because the promised cost savings never materialized.
I remember telling people this would happen back in the early 2000s as company after company outsourced to Asia, but especially China. And it was not limited to manufacturing. The Chinese offered no IP protection whatsoever and made it a point of stealing everything they could and opening up competing local businesses. Of course it was all dismissed by the idiots that wanted to make a quick and big bonus by making it look like they saved the company a ton of money on paper and moving on before the consequences of this move could manifest itself.
Easy to show how much you saved manufacturing in China.
Hard to quantify all the other costs that go along with that: loss of IP, slower delivery times, poor quality, etc.
So the PowerPoint warrior gets accolades for saving the company money and the negative Nellies get scolded for bringing bad news up.
Yeah, but I know plenty of people that got huge promotions, made a ton of money in bonuses, and in general got away with murder doing this shit because they peddled spreadsheets and powerpoint presentations showing cost reductions without ever pointing out you ended up not just with inferior quality products, but new and larger costs. Especially when i worked at GE. That company is on its deathbed today because of this practice and the fact that its senior leadership is practically completely composed of idiots that got there ridding this idiot bandwagon.
And idiots who fellated Obama.
Being a bunch of short visioned asshats that made a lot of lucre and got promoted for terribly stupid ideas so many people still refuse to admit were made and fellating Obama are not mutually exclusive. Especially when you, like Obama, belong to the club that think you are really super cereal smart but are actually about as dumb as shit because you still like top down totalitarian government to help you solve the problem of having to compete in a market by creating a monopoly for you.
If they became stinky, filthy rich, then how were they deficient in their vision?
Long term they fucked over the stock holders they were supposed to be looking out for. I have no problem with people becoming rich. I have a huge problem with people that are in a fiduciary position getting rich peddling snake oil. I wish GE stockholders would start a class action suit against the people that made these dumbass decisions for personal gain.
I get what you’re saying. I’m not a lawyer, so I don’t know how easy or hard it is to prove abuse of fiduciary duty.
Well, Elon is still running around free, so apparently it’s quite difficult.
There are those cases and there the cases of those who wanted access to sell their products in China, which is virtually impossible without manufacturing there.
I’ve been involved in transferring manufacturing lines to China because our customers said we had to if we wanted to retain their business (Motorola, Siemens, Lucent, etc…)
It was unpleasant, mostly because of the asinine decisions made by our upper management who did not fully understand the difficulties of starting up manufacturing with labor that had never used a modern ERP before, let alone trying to coordinate multiple design facilities across the globe with an under-skilled manufacturing facility.
I recall a great many textbooks pushing the idea that every technology had its roots in China. Given the lack of innovation demonstrated over the centuries, it makes me wonder how much of the purported evidence was really some curious soul built this, then the Chinese went and kept doing things the way they always had. Followed or preceeded by separate discovery elsewhere without transmission along trade routes.
From my cursory knowledge of the situation, I believe China saw its most innovative period(s) when it was not united. Which makes sense to me: imagine how backwards Europe would be had the EU been formed a thousand years ago. I’ve also read that Rome was much less innovative after it had established dominance of the Mediterranean than before. Competition is a powerful motivator to innovation.
I would agree with this. For example, during the chaos that was the transition from the Yuan to the Ming Dynasty, Compared to Europe, Chinese naval technology was something like the alien tech we have stored in Warehouse 13 of Area 51. After the Yongle Emperor died, the eunuchs aligned with Zheng He lost power and the Hongwu Emperor, with the support of the Confucian scholar-bureaucrats basically halted all naval exploration and trade, plunging China into a stasis that it has barely recovered from.
The last three or four sets of golf clubs I bought have been made with knock-off parts from China.
Yep. Most of their manufacturing is a cargo cult. So is much of their military. In a straight up fight with us they would lose, lose, lose. I had not looked at the numbers before this article or closely looked at a map of the area for a long time. Obviously we cant push them out of the SCS, they would starve. However neither we nor the other nations there can let them take it over completely. The biggest problem in all of this is that they dont deal in good faith making diplomacy an exercise in futility.
When you have ICBMs, there is no need for a straight up fight. All China needs to do is keep the cost of military intervention equal to San Fransisco or Seattle being vaporized. As I stated below, I see no conflict we have with China that is worth a crater where an West Coast city once stood.
I am cool with anyone nuking San Fran or D.C. I feel both hold this country back.
Fascinating article. Thanks dbleagle.
Lemme guess, this dangerous shit show is all the fault of dastardly Russian bots buying Facebook pages.
I’m right, aren’t I?
Sure, If the Russian bots didn’t buy Facebook page then the American people never would have voted in Trump and Hillary would have been President. If Hillary was president we would be in a rainbow and unicorn worldwide utopia RIGHT NOW. Including having the Chinese stop building up their military and retreat from the SCS.
I look at that map and see a ring of high-tech, high-population, rich nations. At least 3 of them have active nuclear power plants and could have nuclear weapons after a busy afternoon. Maybe the countries on the map need to put aside old grudges and form a meaningful defensive alliance.
I have repeatedly told people that the best check on China, its ambitions, and to prevent a future war, is to allow Korea (South) and Japan to go nuclear. Taiwan already has nukes (they got them from cooperation with South Africa/Israel whom all decided to go nuclear to protect themselves). Unfortunately everyone in that area distrusts everyone else, so this might be a bigger headache than it is worth having.
dbleagle – nice article!
Same thoughts. I have had a plenty of conversations with my quite lefty Japanese friend about this. Surprisingly she agrees. She wants the US out and realizes that means Japan will have to step up.
Sounds like we need some more global warming.
correction
some
moreglobal warming.Heh. That would solve the problem.
I’m waiting to see how well those islands hold up to a super typhoon. The optics for the Chinese public would be great when they find out how much money was wasted.
Chinese Public? They won’t hear a thing about any such thing.
^^^THIS^^^
Most Chinese still live in the 19th century (in a country of close to 1.6 billion less than 400 million people are still not living in primitive agricultural conditions). The ones that live in the cities all are heavily monitored and have a social score to make sure they don’t rock the boat for the oligarchy that runs the state. The few that manage to circumvent the lock-down on information that the communist regime does not want out in the general public are usually dealt with harshly if they become problematic.
1.3 billion (the shí sān yì)
Oops got it confused with the population of India.
Truthfully, I not sure how accurate that number really is. First it’s China, second they’d like to show that their one child policy is being followed faithfully (and it isn’t, but on the other hand the portion of the population that is doing well would be expected to have a declining birthrate).
You know who else was saved from the Chinese by a super typhoon?
Japan?
Technically, they were saved from Mongols.
https://youtu.be/PrsMi_-5AfM
Fantastic work and really enlightening/scary. A close friend of ours is a former B-2 pilot and expounded at length about the missile and air capability changes which aligned very closely with what you were saying.
So hey, let’s keep focusing resources in Afghanistan, right?
It’s only because of Dick Cheney and the Transcaucus Pipeline!!!!1!!11!!oneoneeleventy!!!!!!!
Speaking of Dick Cheney. I was out of the country on vacation and am too lazy to bother, but how did that piece of liberal fantasy/fiction that came out in december about Cheney do? Did it bomb as bad as I expected it to or did it make more than $1 million?
I had forgotten about that film. Wiki says:
So basically it had a decent box office powered by the usual suspects but will lose money because they spent too much to make it.
So there are a lot of idiots willing to pay to watch fiction that makes them feel smart about believing bullshit, I guess.
It made more than a million bucks, but wasn’t some sort of blockbuster.
I recall in the ROTC courses I took years ago, being told to anticipate a new cold war of sorts with China. Good stuff DBEagle!
And we have no mid range misses due to some stupid treaty with the USSR that they never honored, great work diplomats!
Someone linked to this a while back. I suspect much of their military operates in this fashion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mumt5M0gusE
You get less range and overall accuracy per propellant weight that way. And you shell your own lines with flying shell cases.
Iraqi JAM fired plenty of those rockets at me and my mates in 2008. (Manufactured in Iran) They are nowhere as accurate as their propaganda showed, at any range. They are area target weapons, but will kill ya good if you are unlucky.
Yusef, did you see my comment from last night directed at you?
I saw it this morning, some good advise for writing out my thoughts, thanks!
Thanks for your follow-up comment on wargames tables. When I was playing, half the fun was making my own bridges, etc., and landscape.
Also on the writing thing, I’d be happy to “proof” anything you have (<– not intended to be condescending or similar).
I’ll keep that in mind Raven, thanks!
Another facet of this is how much a naval tradition will affect the outcome.
Can a country with limited experience conducting naval operations compete with a country that has had a robust navy for centuries? Is there some institutional knowledge that would tip the scales to the US because our navy has been operating/fighting successfully for a long time? Or can the Chinese pretty much come up to speed without needing to go through a period of naval campaigns? Or is it a non-factor?
And to double up on this, the Chinese have had a few emperors that encouraged naval exploration, but for most of its history China has pretty much ignored the sea.
The thing about a military tradition, as in all things expertise, is that it atrophies without use. While the US Army/Marines/AF all have recent experience, the last major naval engagement the US was involved in was all the way back in 1988, so there are probably very few people in the navy with actual naval combat experience. Which means you fall back to training and theory, and while I have no idea how China fares in these categories, I’d imagine they could be on par with the US if they put their mind to it (even if its just as simple as copying ideas).
That’s true to a degree but we did have a missile engagement off the coast of Yemen a couple years back.
Additionally, we drill a LOT with our own units and allies. China (and Russia) dont get that as much – additionally – trite as it may sound, we still prize independence and innovation when it comes to tactics and scenarios.
That said, the 7th Fleet issues (as expounded on in the newly leaked reports from 2017) are disturbing. Things that should have been addressed years ago will hopefully be corrected in the near term – and again, steady funding will help.
Anyone that saw the military shift in focus from manning ships of war effectively to implementing PC bullshit so we could appease the crowd demanding the military bow to it’s fantasy of how the world should be, could have told you we were eventually going to see loss of life and costly accidents.
I don’t know much about China, but theorizing based on authoritarian organizations… Usually the lower ranks are so afraid to send bad news up the chain, the authoritarian leaders are usually pretty clueless as to the actual state of their organization, their subordinates having constantly painted a pretty picture for them.
My guess is that the Chinese navy roustabouts won’t have a clue of what to do in combat when the shit hits the fan.
At least the US military has some recent experience from which to gauge the potential success of its current training.
OT: TOKSIK MASKYOOLINITEE
https://nationalpost.com/opinion/christie-blatchford-b-c-man-blamed-cruelty-of-family-court-battle-for-driving-him-to-suicide
Sounds like Lady Gillette razors need to make an ad dealing with Toxic Femininity. Women can be better. Don’t be gold diggers, don’t engage in divorce rape.
Might as well do Toxic Islam as well. Don’t blow up that building. Shave that beard off.
I don’t see how either of those ad campaigns would be offensive.
“Sounds like Lady Gillette razors need to make an ad dealing with Toxic Femininity. Women can be better. Don’t be gold diggers, don’t engage in divorce rape.”
how soon before the SJW fuglies demand someone be lynched after something like that airs?
What’s faster than a nanosecond?
Desperate for attention fugly angry SJW hags demanding men pay for some perceived slight to them?
picosecond?
And don’t forget, the J20fighter jet has crappy engines that fall apart, the Russians won’t sell them any, and their copies are shit.
China steel? Ha fucking ha!
Not that Russian engines are that great. Being twice as good as real crappy Chinese copies. but still being marginally effective when compared to a western engine, doesn’t make the Russian engines good. The one good thing that has come out of China stealing so much IP is that most of what they have is still first rate crap, but as the old commies in the USSR used to say: quantity can make its own quality. And we all know that the Chinese leadership likely believes it has plenty of cannon fodder it can use with that population number they have…
It’s the rocket forces that worries me, accuracy ain’t that big a deal when you have tens of thousands of them
Yeah, China has gone down the road of using asymmetrical attacks to do area denial, but rockets still need guidance. If we can prevent them from locating their usual targets, their chances of using these are nil. Fixed targets, like land bases, however, don’t require much other than a gps location to hit, and if you have a large enough conventional warhead and can saturate the air defenses, you will cause massive damage there.
A few KEWs from orbit on their command & control facilities, and that threat becomes irrelevant.
The greatest issues with quantity is that if you have a 10-1 kill rate and you commit 100 fighters and they commit 1200 they win if they have the will. The CCP will have the will since if they throw down on the US they must win or end up with their families being billed for the 9mm ammo that ends up in their head.
Well said
“Clay Routledge
@clayroutledge
·
Jan 15
We are living in an era of woke capitalism in which companies pretend to care about social justice to sell products to people who pretend to hate capitalism.”
Also this.
“The people saying 2019 is going to be horrible aren’t carefully considering all of the facts. For instance, there is going to be a John Wick 3.”
Nod…
Additional fact to consider:
Sam Elliot in “The Man Who Killed Hitler and then The Bigfoot”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFHJMBQIav0
Not even Sam Elliot can kill STEVE SMITH
Anything with Sam Elliot.
ROAD HOUSE!
STEVE SMITH ENJOY FICTION!
AND BY FICTION, MEAN…
Friction?
Wait, you telling me Steve Smith is into Chick Flicks? SAY IT AIN’T SO!
That looks sweet
I haven’t seen the second John Wick yet. first one was great.
I think the consensus of reviews is the 2nd isn’t as good as the 1st (typical of sequels), but I actually like it better.
That’s cool, I’m definitely looking forward to it.
The body count is decent.
The plot is a combination of retarded and missing.
“Someone killed my dog and stole my car? I will go on a rampage!”
“I can get a million dollar reward for killing John Wick, and have a 0.2% chance of not dying in the attempt? GO GO GO (((Blam)))
People with over inflated egos and sense of self go after a guy that is pissed someone killed his one and only link to a life outside that of a hitman? Maybe I had some different life experiences that make this actually something I can relate to….
My problem with John Wick 1 and 2 is that having grown up on John Woo/Chow Yun Fat flicks, the whole enterprise seemed so, so derivative. However, I can see liking it if it were your first exposure to Gun-Fu movies.
Hey! CPRM, my comment last night was a joke, I think your animation is Art,
Florida Man doing his thing. https://www.tbnweekly.com/pinellas_county/crime_crashes_fire/article_329fd3c4-19d7-11e9-9d2c-db17e18d4c7c.html
Happened just down the street from my parents condo.
He just got out of jail and needed some cash to go get himself some booze, blow, and bitchez, man..
Great article. My guess is China will avoid direct confrontation with us while continuing to bully their smaller neighbors into submission. At the same time, they will continue their military buildup to the point that all the “experts” will recommend against confrontation because we’re not assured of winning.
What are the conditions for victory?
It would have to be the cessation, or at least containment of China’s aggression in the region. It may already be too late.
Oh, I wonder if it is not. There was a point a decade or so ago when a conflict would be decisive and the world could have recovered from it, but now I suspect if the shit does hit the fan the cost will be massive and the world’s economy would collapse. The Chinese are not going to back down without someone kicking in their teeth unfortunately, because we have let them get away with it for too long, and at this point they feel nobody will take the risk. That’s how wars start however. One side suspects the other will not feel cornered and go hostile.
The PRC is neither invincible nor just a hollow force. The main danger they present is that everyone except the US is too weak to stand up to them – militarily, and most economically. The Chinese rulers have the drive and will to steamroller over anything in their way in the area. That is where I see the most danger – if they go too far and the US and others say “Here, and no further” … Why would the Chinese believe it?
Trump isn’t Obama, so they need to wait a while
Yeah, but eventually we will get another Obama.
Ghost of Dugout Doug says shoulda let me turn Manchuria into an irradiated parking lot.
I mentioned a few weeks back that I was reading A Splendid Exchange. I am pretty sure this is almost straight out of a chapter from it, with the times updated by 400 years.
History doesn’t repeat but it does rhyme.
Great article. Well done!
This might have been posted here, don’t remember, just got around to watching it. Anyways, would.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/01/14/isnt-enough-this-ucla-gymnasts-flawless-floor-routine-just-broke-internet/
A bucket of teeth
She’s not doing herself any favors in that regard with her lipstick, I think. I mean, she’s a toothy girl, for sure, but the contrast draws attention.
Damn. Watched her routine. I no longer have socks on because it blew them off my feet. Seriously, I don’t care about gymnastics, but that was incredible.
Check her out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ic7RNS4Dfo
Yeah… that’s why you took off that sock.
Dude, not what I use. Also, she’s not my type. Not doggin the idea, (pun intended) just the execution.
” Also, she’s not my type. ”
Note: do not blame anyone for disagreeing with this. Anyone.
I think she looks a lot better when she has a haircut that suits her.
Much much better
You’re not wrong.
Watching someone do something they are extremely good at, when they are in a flow state and doing at the top of their game is a thing of joy.
Also, since it’s UCLA and that means she is of age: Would.
With or without chains & whips and Chips & dips? Inquiring minds want to know…
Damn, what a well done article! I know very little about this whole situation, so the overview and explanation is terrific.
Starting to look like transferring so much knowledge to the ChiComs was not such a brilliant plan.
The PLAAF is fielding large numbers of modern 4th generation aircraft that can go toe to toe with many US aircraft and outperform Taiwanese aircraft.
Not saying this isn’t true, but I grew up hearing this about the Russians. Reports of their competence were greatly exaggerated.
“Damn, what a well done article!”
Second.
I remember a briefing in 1990 —
The average Iraqi soldier is 9 foot tall and slightly bullet-proof.
His state-of-the-art tank out-matches all of our woefully inadequate armored systems.
etc. etc.
“Not saying this isn’t true, but I grew up hearing this about the Russians. Reports of their competence were greatly exaggerated.”
My father was in the Air Force, and he told me about their shock when they disassembled a Soviet MIG that a defector flew in. Incredibly primitive design. Vacuum tubes, for example.
It was still a formidable fighter despite the low tech, but not as much as reported before they got to tear it apart.
The engineers which examined the a/c thought the vacuum tubes would survive EMP better and be easier to replace with poorly trained personnel. It was a different design based on different considerations.
Larf.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/kentucky-driver-seemingly-tries-to-destroy-snowman-surprised-when-they-hit-tree-stump
Save the links, you’ll need ’em.
Oh no, We’ve hit peak links.
Wopner’s not till 4.
A good if expensive book on Fleet tactics for those interested. I have the original 1986 version of this by the same author.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LEUMN96/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i0
Sorry the latest edition
https://www.amazon.com/dp/1682473376/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvpv2_1?pf_rd_p=6375e697-f226-4dbd-a63a-5ec697811ee1&pd_rd_wg=RcZl2&pf_rd_r=VGZ0J37QZ3PGE8R7S5ND&pd_rd_i=1682473376&pd_rd_w=eUhmc&pd_rd_r=03c03f5b-f851-4854-a5f7-2f25894b60dc&ie=UTF8&qid=1547754826&sr=1
OT: This is funny as hell.
Dear Madame Speaker,
I just refreshed to see if someone else had posted this story first. I’m still not seeing a big downside to this shutdown continuing.
LOL
But you can’t call out the Speaker of the House on her expensive junkets. That’s just not done. Trump is a buffoon and needs to be impeached now.
But how is Nancy going to save the planet and our democracy if she can’t jet set around?
I wish all these people now pointing out that the power of the purse comes from the house had been all vocal about it when Obama was going around using his pen to circumvent this reality…
My favorite part:
I really, really don’t want to start liking The Donald. But he’s making it harder each day.
Second. Or, at least for me, the others in politics are making it harder to dislike him.
Best. Fucking. Timeline.
Thank you so much for this excellent post, dbleagle. I had only an inkling of what is truly going on over there.
This is a great article and I’m looking forward to Part 2. My focus in college was modern Asian history, in which China figured heavily. I was lucky enough to have a professor for a few classes who was a Chinese man who’d left the mainland as a young child in the 50s and could speak to some of the events either from personal experience or that of family.
One of the most challenging things about dealing with China in terms of foreign relations is that they can play a long game. Chinese culture is generally very patriotic, very nationalistic, comfortable with sacrifice for the good of the whole, and content to trust in authority. And the Chinese government doesn’t change on the basis of elections in the way that others do, so they can outline a policy that takes place over decades with little to no observable progress in the short term and not only stick with it but adhere to its original terms. That’s why China’s Taiwan policy is so effective. They’re perfectly content to wait until the US stops caring, because they know a unified China is worth more to them than an independent Taiwan is to us in, say, a hundred years.
And as alluded to above, they have zero qualms about being as racist or sexist as they want in pursuit of their national goals. And the youth are actually more nationalistic now than at any time since Tiananmen Square thanks to beefed up propaganda campaigns.
I don’t want to be a dick (ok, that’s a lie), but I’m pretty sure Khe Sahn is not a lesser known campaign.
But good article. dbleagle. Also, being in HI’s gotta add to your edge there, understandably.
Enjoyed your article, 2 X Eagle
.I hope this SCS stuff doesn’t get out of hand though, I’d hate to get called back. We still are wanting to win, right?
How do you know when your organization is making a progress in the fight against the NEA, the public school monopoly et al?
When the leftist attack dogs start putting up thinly sourced and ridiculous hit pieces against you.
The mere inclusion of that statement in the article speaks volumes about its purpose.
“By networking with Russians, the HSLDA — now America’s largest right-wing homeschooling association”
Damn, I was wondering why all the chillins are speaking Russian these days. It could get worse, they could get taught math too.
The suggestion is preposterous. That by supporting home schooling, the Russians are seeking to undermine American society. One would have to be a grade AAA fool to look at the state of public education in this country and believe that. But there are plenty of Grade AA fools out there.
He says it as if left wing groups are immune to this kind of infiltration assuming it is even happening. This really is starting to sound like a left wing red scare. They just need their own Tailgunner Joe now.
Really starting to sound? Heh. These people were telling us all how stupid we were to think the Russians were not to be trusted back when Obama was in charge and now think the Russians are behind everything because it helps them pretend Trump is hence evil by association. Fuck the lot of them.
I hope the HSLDA sue him for slander.
This is sick on so many levels. For the life of me, I have no idea why supporters of school choice don’t label their opponents “racists”. If we’re being honest most of the opposition to school choice is based around the upper class fear about black kids going to their kid’s school. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
RRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHUUUUUUUUUUUUUNZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
I get regular updates of HSLDA defending homeschoolers. In many places, public schools, CPS, police, and judicial system have combined forces to curb stomp homeschooling into oblivion. Often just a phone call from a HSLDA lawyer is enough to back a school bureaucrat down, but they’ve provided no-cost defense for some extremely disturbing court cases involving what can only be called kidnapping from CPS and aiding/abetting from the judge. In one case, the kids got broken bones in foster care after CPS kidnapped them.
They’re a Christian organization but accept everyone with no qualms. I purchased a lifetime membership.
I’m going to now, too. Thanks for the background
We are members as well. Fortunately, we do not need them in our district, but that can change.
I cant even read all the way through that. What a bunch of horseshit the Russian booger man is. And from ThinkProgress no less.
All together, class: “Nǐ hǎo ma?”
No I don’t want any gold!
/old MMORPG player
Sign my charter for 10 gold……….
That’s my furbolg!
Hopefully, Part 2 will explain why I should be willing to die over the Spratlys, because currently I’m no more willing to die over them than I’m willing to die over the Crimean Peninsula or the Euphrates.
I agree with the sentiment, but I took the article as more informative than anything.
Unless your enlisted or under 21 you’ll be safe HM
Cheap i-Phones?
This has been my question too. This article was very balanced, but the WSJ has been pushing hard for intervention against this. It’s not apparent to me why I should care what China does in their backyard any more than it’s China’s business what we do in ours.
It’s not what China does in it’s backyard as much as China telling everyone they restrict navigation rights (or demand payment) impacting everyone’s economy and trade in Asia period. I guess if we are OK not trading with Asia and paying a lot more for cheap crap from somewhere else, you can simply ignore the economic impacts.
Whereas China is a party to the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, we’re part of the handful of nations that are not. Why should China listen to our belly-aching over compliance with a treaty we didn’t even sign?
I think we are not telling them they need to comply with anything as much as we are telling them we will not tolerate them telling any shipping other than pirates that they are not allowed free navigation of these waters.
Again FON, as a legal concept, is defined and established as part of international law in the Convention. We just pinky swear that we’ll respect other states’ FON near our waters.
Shit I remember media stories just last year screaming in panic that the Russians has spy ships just 15 miles of the US coast (and basically claiming they were spying for Trump) and demanding he tell the navy to run it off or sink it and nobody in the military even blinking an eye. These ships are regularly parked just 15 miles away from Groton here in CT spying on the naval submarine force.
Absolutely agree. I sense the alarm is more pride thing. Since WWII the US has been able to exercise it military will just about anywhere with no meaningful opposition. Well, except for goat herders living in mud huts. It hurts our sense of self that this may no longer be the case in an important part of the world.
It really does depend on how far China will go. If they decide to regulate shipping where they have no jurisdiction, the US does have an interest in opposing that. Even if the US restricts itself to defending US-flagged ships and leaves the other nations to the wolves, there is still the possibility that the conflict would escalate. And I do think the US should defend its own shipping, at the least.
Great article dbleagle.
I think it’s inevatable the Chinese will eventually have clear miliary superiority in that area. The have the wealth, the population, the technology, the motivation and the time. The question is what do they do with it. I agree with Swiss that they’ll bully their weaker neighbors. The real problem is the threat to Taiwan – one of our few true allies in the world.
Whatever their military capabilies are however, the Chinese govt (as opposed to the military) cannot affort to have the flow of container ships interruped – their economic situation is really rather precarious.
“So sorry, but it’s now a national security threat to allow ships from Chinese waters to enter US ports..” It would hurt us cetainly, but not as much as it would the Chinese.
When have sanctions ever worked, though?
Fair enough, but would the Chinese civilian leadership be willing to risk it? Dunno.
The current leadership has successfully moved the line at will, so I am sure they feel they can risk it. especially when the WH is occupied by another pussy like the last one.
I think a better question is why should we even encourage the whole declaring a “national security threat” to get around the fact that it’s Congress that passes tariffs under the Constitution?
The same Congress that declares war? That Congress?
I’m just asking questions, man!
I don’t think they really exist.
The same entity that has spent the last 40 or 50 years abdicating these sort of responsibilities so they could avoid having to vote and be held accountable for said vote?
Bad choice of words. My point wasn’t meant to be that the Pres could use the stupid declaration as a sanction, but rather if the bullets and rockets really started flying between us the container ships would stop. Partly from the USN, but mostly from insurance companies who wouldn’t underwrite sailings.
If we got into an God’s-honest, actual shooting war with China, cheap shit access would be the least of our problems.
Don’t tell some people that. They lovez them some Russia and Iran sanctions. And if you don’t like that then you’re complicit!
When have sanctions ever worked, though?
Both world wars, for example. Had free trade been permitted, it’s possible the Central Powers or Axis Powers would have won, but as it was they were choked for supplies (especially oil). The counter-point to this, of course, is that sanctions by themselves don’t work, as it does seem to require either a war or extreme internal instability for them to work, but they are not useless. They are not the panacea many politicians seem to think they are, but I suspect a lot of that is just for show so they can tell the voters they “did something about it”.
OT: I expected this story to happen in FLA, but it happened in PA.
Great write-up, dbleagle, and right up my alley as a Naval weapons engineer. Yeah, SCS looms large in our “hypotheticals”.
A few of you mentioned directed energy and even orbiting directed energy weapons. The Ruskies have already deployed satellites that get uncomfortably close to other satellites, and it is believed they might be listening in, ramping up to jam the other satellites, or even to nudge them off orbit.
And unmanned submarines are a real thing too. Undersea drones. UUV is a term you can search.