I am a liar.
My relationship with the Truth has waxed and waned. I was a liar from a very young age, particularly after I learned that lying could help me get away with things and contra to what my parents told me, telling the truth didn’t make things better (nor was I believed when I told the truth.) At some point, my moral development kicked in, and I began valuing Truth for its own sake, culminating in college, where I joined a fraternity that had “Truth” as one of its cardinal principles, got a degree in the hard sciences, and began work in an analytical chemistry law-enforcement lab. Then I became involved with a beautiful woman who believed that the value of Truth was in its utility, and had extremely persuasive arguments for that point of view (and by very persuasive arguments I mean “but dat ass doe.”)
Anyway, this puts me in good company, since lying is not only a tradition or social norm among arcanists, but is part of the very education process. Sometimes, (such as now) people are quite overt about it. For example, when you are building up your Thelemic library you will encounter The Book of Lies. Which was titled as such because ol’ A.C. was becoming more arrogant and thought that his students/useful idiots needed to be explicitly told that all of his works were full of lies. The ones that refused to have their faith in him shaken were then excellent sources of funds and substitute/short term Scarlet Women.
All occult texts suffer from internal contradictions of purpose. They need to record the author’s discoveries, but prevent them from being stolen. They must educate the worthy apprentice, but confound the doofus. Sometimes key words were omitted (a practice the remains today in writings of Masonic and Masonic-derived rituals,) sometimes parts of the text are encoded, and sometimes lies are inserted, or truths misstated. The idea being, those who had wisdom would be able to tell which parts were traps (and through their discernment of the truth would prove their worthiness to receive the secrets) while those unready would gain a flawed, useless, and harmless understanding. Then when these false initiates would spread their error, true practitioners would be able to recognize the impostors. This still happens today. In my fraternity, there were bogus rituals and signs that were used specifically for situations such as your girlfriend demanding that you tell her secrets to prove you trusted her or whatever and a few times in college I had someone purporting to be a member of a different chapter slip me that faux handshake. It was always very amusing to see the lengths people go to in order to cadge a free beer.
I mention this because I will be discussing the role of Tarot occasionally, and I want you to know why there is so much contradictory information out there. For example, I refer to the suit of “coins,” not “pentacles.” If you read the literature contemporary with the creation of the Waite deck, the official name is “pentacles.” That’s one of those lies. People who call it pentacles are either dilettantes who don’t really know what they are doing, or people who don’t respect their clients to speak to them directly. Either way, kick them to the curb and find a different reader. another fun fact about the Waite deck, Artie Waite switched the order of two of the cards. This is a classic bit of misdirection. Now the debate is, was A.E.W. correcting an earlier trap, or adding one of his own? The consensus answer is yes, though there are multiple arguments, fat too tedious and really not worth your while to go into here. Instead, let’s see what the heavens have in store:
This week, there is only one alignment: Jupiter-Sol-Mercury-Mars. This is indicative of discordant entities coming together but in a way that results in a positive outcome. It’s good news for chefs and chemists, but bad news for sculptors and welders.
This is the first week with the sun in Pisces, so let’s get them some theme music. Also joining the party is Mercury, so it should be a great week for all the little fishies out there. A waning gibbous moon in Scorpio is not such good news, indicating bad moods and crankiness, particularly to the detriment of your love life. This might be related to Saturn and Venus being in Capricorn, which predicts that you’re going to say something rather stupid to a romantic partner. Jupiter in Sagittarius is typically a good sign as we’ve mentioned before, but it is an aggressive pairing, which is important since Mars in Taurus is also such. So we’ve got two indications of aggression, one of crankiness, and one warning about shooting your mouth off. Probably a good week to practice whatever relaxation techniques work well for you.
That’s what’s in the stars; here’s what’s in the cards:
Pisces: 5 of Coins, reversed – Disorder, chaos, ruin, profligacy
Aries: 8 of Cups, reversed – Great joy, feasting
Taurus: 7 of Cups, reversed – Desire, will, determination
Gemini: 6 of Wands – Victory, great news
Cancer: King of Swords – Skill, courage, destruction, wrath, ruin
Leo: King of Wands, reversed – Division, interruption, discord
Virgo: 2 of Coins – Parties, recreation, news in writing, agitation
Libra: 2 of Wands, reversed – Surprise, wonder, trouble, fear
Scorpio: Ace of Wands, reversed – Fall, decadence, perdition
Sagittarius: The Hermit, reversed – Concealment, disguise, fear
Capricorn: 3 of Coins – skilled labor, artistry, glory, renown
Aquarius: Temperance – Economy, moderation, frugality, wise management
Oh great, I just make a few comments in the last post and up pops this one. There will be no feasting for this Aries, I’ve got weight to drop.
STEVE SMITH HELP WITH EXERCISE PROGRAM. IT RUNNING BASED.
Hmm is a rapesquatch built for speed, or endurance? Sadly, my ass right now built for comfort.
RAPESQUATCH BUILT FOR SPEEDY ENDURANCE.
STEVE AGREE. HIM VERY COMFORTABLE INSIDE.
In case you were wondering if Newton was lying to you about his Third Law:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPW6kUrvh_w
Momentum is conserved.
I just received my SW tarot cards, and the little booklet that learned me a lot about the history, it helps I’m a good liar
The Fool
“Probably a good week to practice whatever relaxation techniques work well for you. ”
So you’re saying I should make a trip to the liquor store today?
You jack off at the liquor store?
#metoo
Lol
Hey, that bottle of MacAllen 25 was hawt.
Clean up needed in aisle 3.
Thank gawd for tamper-proof labels with you pervs.
So, I slept in and missed the (((morning))) links which is too bad ’cause yesterday I learned some more how (((they)) are taking over the world.
The new range got delivered (gas – yay!) and among it’s many (and likely useless) electronic hoodads there is a (((Sabbath))) mode. I tried to figure it out but gave up (quickly). It involves presettings and alerts and some other stuff. Written I’m sure by some rabbi.
I am impressed by the lengths (they’ll) go to get get around Yahweh’s peevishness.
So your range is a (((gas chamber)))?
It always struck me as kind of humorous that they invent things so that they can use stoves, lights, phones, etc. without technically breaking the Sabbath, as if the creator of the universe is going to be fooled by that. It’s like the theological version of “I’m not touching you”.
Yahweh: Hey you, is that a stove you’re using on the Sabbath?!
Mortal: *wagging finger* Ah ah ah, but TECHNICALLY I’m not using the stove! It’s on Sabbath mode!
Yahweh: (aside) Well crap… He’s got me there.
Yeah, I just bought a new stove in November and Sabbath mode was in instructions. I had to Google it. Funny.
Old Testament God is a surprisingly sympathetic figure.
In the Old Testament they had gentile servants to do the things they couldn’t do on Sabbath. I think if that passed muster, having a machine do it probably would as well.
A couple we’ve known since high school live up in Lancaster across from some Amish. Last time we were up there they swung by an Amish farm to pick up some eggs, corn, stuff like that. I immediately noticed that in the shed they were using as a kind of store front there was a phone, a computer, and a cash register with a card reader. Turns out, at least among some Amish, they get around the prohibition on labor-saving devices and “worldliness” by sticking stuff like that in outbuildings so they’re physically and symbolically separate from their homes. There’s a similar rationale where they’ll hire guys to haul produce and drive it and them down to a local Amish market.
Yea, I remember reading that some of them will use technology like that as long as it’s in a communal area and you still have to engage with the community to use it.
I will always remember walking into an Amish furniture store and seeing one of the teenage girls working there, dressed in full Amish garb, sitting at a desk and browsing Facebook on the computer in front of her.
If they’re allowed on Facebook because its “at work”, they’ve basically abdicated their core positions in my book. It’s just a label with no meaning.
Also, the furniture we got there was not the quality I’d come to expect from the Amish.
The Amish allow the kids more leeway culminating in what they call the Rumspringa, which is basically a period in which they are free to go experience the outside world, it ends when they choose adult baptism into the church. You are born to an Amish family, but you must choose to become an Amish adult. It strikes me as a very honest custom.
Yep.
FESTIVAL!!!
Nothing strikes me as more likely to make you want to become Amish than browsing facebook.
Them folks are crafty.
There’s a permanent Amish market in a shopping center nearby and I see stuff like that a lot. You go in to buy a pretzel dog and while someone’s plain grandmother is ringing you up there’s a 20-something smokeshow in the full get-up on a cell phone with a barely-visible tattoo.
If you want furniture you have to go Mennonite, they have an ethic that allows for pride in workmanship. The Amish are much more inclined to do something functional without aesthetics (e.g. our fence). Although you rarely see one of their buggies in disrepair, so human nature for the win.
Speaking of buggies, the Amish are brutal to their horses. They look at them as tools. My soon to be brother in law raises race horses, and they’ll go up to horse auctions to pick up companion horses. The ones the Amish are offloading are always scraggly, worn-out, and underfed. Apparently they just run them into the ground and dump them at auction when they’re done.
Yeah, you have to grit your teeth sometimes seeing what you do.
Yes, certain Amish groups allow things like that.
Some also allow electricity in the home, but only if you are cut off from the grid. So, think a windmill or generator.
“Libra: 2 of Wands, reversed – Surprise, wonder, trouble, fear”
Looks like I’m going to discover my special purpose this week.
I discovered mine at around age 13. You’ve got some catching up to do.
Your purpose is masturbation?
psst
Apparently, it’s one of them, anyway.
Huh. That’s weird. This time last week I was half-seriously looking up divorce law. Then the rest of the week we’re thick as thieves and, well, enjoying a healthy marital relationship in every room of the house. Maybe I’m a week off, astrologically-speaking.
Great. Not a good week for this Leo to have a major Board meeting.
Agitation is a pretty easy prediction for me as I’m agitated most of the time. If by parties and recreation you mean sitting at bar drinking beer, that’s another no brainer. News in writing doesn’t sound good.
Although shake up in org at work so maybe I’ll get news who my new AD will be via email.
If by parties and recreation you mean sitting at bar drinking beer, that’s another no brainer.
That was me earlier today. I cut it short because I have a pot roast in the slow cooker. Shame. The bartender was cute.
Nice:)
We don’t advertise here, and this isn’t a recommendation, but if you were looking for alternatives to Dick’s, I must say: Academy is giving away Glocks and ammo.
There was chat about gun shows once. Tried it once and all I saw was a bunch of bent Mosins and used pistols priced a few nickels less than NIB (I could never get over my dad’s barb about used cars being other people’s problems, and there were all these stories when I was kid / revolver guy about autos jamming), but YMMV.
And though my EDC happens to be a Glock, I’m not a GlockBoy; but damn that’s a lot of efficient carefree death that you can put in your pocket for just a very few pictures of some dead presidents.
I miss Academy since leaving TX. We have Dicks, Field and Stream, and a bunch of small independent outdoors stores. Academy had a huge selection and depth of product offerings with good prices.
I have Cabellas about 1.5 hours away but it’s out of site and mind.
Yeah, I’m not a Glock boy just because they’re just ugly and have little if any artistic value. I also hate the grips and the trigger. My fingers hurt from rubbing on trigger guard and the vibrating trigger after a trip at the range. But I own 3 (1 new, 1 used from friend, 1 inherited) and keep a Glock 22 as my dresser so yeah, maybe no form and not all that comfortable to shot (for me anyways) but you can’t argue with15 rounds of .40 critical defense and the confidence to know that when you pull the trigger it will go bang every single time and with that ammo on target as well.
I have a hand meant to hold a Belgian Browning Hi-power, or a 1911, so Glocks do not feel comfortable in the slightest. And the trigger, blech.
let me almost agree with you:
(everyone has) a hand meant to hold a Belgian Browning Hi-power, or a 1911, so Glocks do not feel comfortable
Yeah, I have two 1911s and those are my favorite guns. Love the grip, love the trigger.
Yup. Wrists have not changed since Browning, so he is still right. That’s my idea of pretty as well.
But I decided that Glock was the better answer for street combat. I got very Pentagon about it, decided it was time to move on from revolvers, set esthetics, bias, and history aside, and let grim math lead me. When the chips are down, I figure I’m a good 50% better off than even the excellent level a 1911 affords.
But for fun, yeah: the 1911 is just more fun to shoot. It’s like shifting your own gears: just will never get out of my blood.
My CZ has allowed me to improve my shooting from “Benny Hill” to “Barney Fife.” Though it now feels too small in the grip compared to the absolute perfection when I first got it.
God designed the hand and his prophet (PBUH) John Moses designed the gun.
I carry a Ruger LCR .327. Though I put serious thought into using a Glock as my EDC instead, I have a Glock 19 as my car gun.
Glock triggers make me have to adjust my grip to shoot accurately so I don’t like them. I also have a LCR but in 38 SP
I get that. I think they throw me off a bit as well. This guy goes through a column inch and still says nothing other than toughen up buttercup. But I know I’m dead eye dick with every other trigger on the planet, so let us put the red X where it belongs: on that trigger.
He talks about running the gun, but I’ll admit that as a marksman who squeezed off every rimfire of my childhood as if it were my last tuppence; I’m never going to be the sort who just throws lead in the air, and, anyway, urban self-defense seems the last place where in-theater techniques belong. I’m going to wait, risk a hit, and spent that extra half-second making sure the first one matters . . . and then get an ounce faster if I think the situation will allow it.
But maybe I do have some things to learn: the faster I shoot a Glock it almost fixes itself (less accurate but more precise in precisely the dimensional way that a gunfight benefits from).
But maybe I don’t have anything to learn: from 1911 to Garand, I just don’t have this issue.
Agreed. That’s why there’s more than one type of trigger type and style. You should use what’s comfortable and natural to you.
There was chat about gun shows once. Tried it once and all I saw was a bunch of bent Mosins and used pistols priced a few nickels less than NIB (I could never get over my dad’s barb about used cars being other people’s problems, and there were all these stories when I was kid / revolver guy about autos jamming), but YMMV.
I’ve never had trouble finding decent deals at gun shows, but the main reason I buy there is to go private sale and avoid putting my name in the system more than once.
I first learned about Academy visiting my father-in-law in east Texas. I think the closest one to him is actually Shreveport. Anyway, that place is awesome. They were running an awesome deal on 7.62×39 a while back. I picked up 1000 rounds for something like $200 shipped up to Maryland.
The show in Columbus this morning was a little better than typical, a few more tables and less flea market crap. Lots of new pistols, lots of ARs and AR parts. Not as many used guns and very few old military pieces. The prices that I paid attention to seemed decent. Reeeeally tempted to pick up a KelTec KSG, but hard to justify, and still some lingering reliability doubts.
Leo: King of Wands, reversed – Division, interruption, discord
Oh good. Back to normal!
I’mma need some of that this week. Got my plumbing problems, but more importantly, I need to get this book done. I am slacking.
Gemini: Victory, great news
That would be nice.
“but dat ass doe”
http://archive.li/vBqRX
On topic: Everyone’s first responsibility is to the Truth, both lowercase and uppercase. Lying may be expedient and advantageous under some circumstances, but it’s like hatred, it rots the container until it’s hollowed out.
*raps knuckles on head*
You got a point there.
Bah.
False models that are useful are still useful.
The truth is counterproductive in relationships all the time. Like all the time. Keeping one’s soul pure by inflicting pain on someone else is pseudo-righteousness.
All of us, well, some of us, at least me, have a closet full of skeletons. Is not confessing the same as lying? There are things that would be hurtful if others knew so I keep them in another chapter of my life.
What if Catholic purgatory was an emptying out of all skeletons in all closets? What if you had to acclimate to Truth before you could actually exist in the afterlife? What if I was a short italian judge who asked lots of questions?
Agreed. The answer to “Does this shirt make me look fat?” is a sterling example. Being obtuse and insensitive might be technically honest but serves no purpose beyond self-righteousness. In terms of sin, I think it’s an example of pride.
This question is only a trap if you let it become one. I’ve always answered that question honestly and straight-up; women know they’re going to get unvarnished truth from me if they ask.
Sometimes they really do actually want to know if the outfit they’re putting on will help get them free drinks from dumbasses at the bar.
I don’t lie, I just talk about the shirt. “What are your other options?” is a good one. “I think it’s kinda hanging funny on you. What about the blue one?” is a good one, too.
“No.” Every time.
Not said sometimes, although not in years: It’s not the shirt that makes you look fat. It’s the fat.
Everyone who asks that question already thinks they’re fat, so there’s really no point to talking about it. That’s not usually what they’re really asking, anyway. It’s usually something between “I need you to reassure me because I feel self-conscious” and “I’m looking for clothing that’s going to be as forgiving as possible, and I’m too self-conscious to accurately assess whether this is doing that.”
Relevant.
The truth is counterproductive in relationships all the time. Like all the time. Keeping one’s soul pure by inflicting pain on someone else is pseudo-righteousness.
This sounds good, but most lies are told to benefit the liar, not to spare pain to the lied to. If you argue that not all lies are morally equivalent, I’d agree. When you expand past that into denying the value of truth you have ridden the pendulum to a worse place than the person who won’t lie to spare another pain.
My thoughts: “confession is good for the soul” is true insofar as unburdening yourself may be helpful, but what one is really seeking is absolution. From whom? Who has the authority or credibility to absolve one?
Let’s say one cheats on one’s spouse. One is remorseful, vows never to do it again, and one doesn’t, but one has that secret, barring the spouse finding out some other way. Bearing that guilt/secret is the cheater’s responsibility. Telling the spouse is just offloading one’s own guilt on the aggrieved party. So the cheater’s soul is lightened but the spouse has been sinned against twice.
True. Much “confession” is selfishly motivated.
barring the spouse finding out some other way
Is a pretty big stumbling block to that argument. As is the high likelihood of repetition. I think in the vast majority of cases the argument that telling the spouse will just hurt them is a rationalization, and the real reason is desire to avoid the consequences. That said I have never been married, so my opinion is possibly of little worth.
So the cheater’s soul is lightened but the spouse has been sinned against twice.
I’m not sure I agree with this. There’s only a sliver of daylight between this and “it isn’t cheating if you don’t get caught.”
IMO, the spouse is being sinned against every day that they’re not told about the cheating. The relationship has changed, and the only thing keeping the consequences of that change from happening is that the cheater is hiding the change from their spouse. Just because the dog has piled the rug up on his pile of shit doesn’t mean he didn’t shit in the house. It just means that the rug is gonna need to be washed, too.
I see your point. Perhaps the solution lies in whether the spouse would want to know or not. Me, no. I don’t want to know. I am never coming back from something like that.
Likewise, I would want to confess to receive absolution, so bearing the guilt silently with no ansolution would be the punishment/consequence.
Clearly the only answer is to CLEANSE the unfaithful spouse.
Maybe, maybe not.
If the cheating spouse realized how much they fucked up, how much they do actually love their spouse, etc and then decides NOT to put horns on the head of their spouse, NOT subject their kids to a divorce, etc…
It seems to be very much like the justification for throwing dug offenders in prison. One side says “they need to hit rock bottom before they get help” the other says “no matter how bad the effects of drug addiction are, a prison sentence won’t make them better.”
I guess what is most important, punishing the sinner or protecting the innocent?
I guess what is most important, punishing the sinner or protecting the innocent?
I guess I don’t see the protection in allowing the innocent to live a precarious lie. It just seems to take away agency from the innocent party to me. They don’t get to choose whether to forgive or whether to leave. They don’t get to decide whether they trust the offending spouse enough to let them go to the bar where they initiated the affair. The cheater retains all control of the situation.
Whether the result is punishment or absolution, the offender doesn’t and shouldn’t get to make that choice for the offended.
The innocent goes beyond the aggrieved. For example, not telling my grandchildren some things that they are not involved in may hurt them so better that no one knows except me. Let the skeletons stay put in the closet.
The innocent goes beyond the aggrieved.
True, and to extend the hypothetical, I don’t think it’s anybody’s business whether one spouse cheated on the other except within that marriage. Just like I don’t think it’s anybody’s business whether somebody uses drugs except for within their close family.
IMO, telling the aggrieved party/parties that you stepped on their toes is the only moral necessity. Publicizing your wrongdoing outside of that is purely optional, and can definitely be hurtful if done indiscriminately.
Here we get into a logical positivism thing.
If the betrayed spouse thinks they are in a loving committed relationship, and their interactions between them and their cheating spouse are those of a happily married couple, then as far as the innocent spouse is concerned, they are in a happy marriage. Something that cannot be measured does not exist.
It may not be our own doing but rather things that we know or were even the victims of in
the past. Let those things rest.
If the betrayed spouse thinks they are in a loving committed relationship, and their interactions between them and their cheating spouse are those of a happily married couple, then as far as the innocent spouse is concerned, they are in a happy marriage. Something that cannot be measured does not exist
1. I think they generally know there is something wrong.
2. Even if they don’t know, there is in fact something wrong
3. Bullshit
Not even vaguely bullshit.
It is EXACTLY the same principle by which the concept of “inherent value” is rejected. Something is worth what the buyer thinks it is worth. Humans are the only source of evaluation, so there is nothing “right” or “wrong” with a relationship other than the participants in it deeming it so.
If the betrayed spouse thinks they are in a loving committed relationship, and their interactions between them and their cheating spouse are those of a happily married couple, then as far as the innocent spouse is concerned, they are in a happy marriage. Something that cannot be measured does not exist
Except one of them does in fact know, and there is in fact an undisclosed betrayal. It is utter bullshit to pretend that because the person being cheated on is unaware that they are not being cheated on. Your position is not tenable, has no relationship to the market in your analogy, and conflates the true statement that no authority gets to set value or impose values, which is true, with the utterly false statement that therefore neither value nor values exist.
Do what thou wilt may be the whole of your law, but treat others as you would have them treat you is a far better credo.
Humans are the only source of evaluation, so there is nothing “right” or “wrong” with a relationship other than the participants in it deeming it so.
And there’s nothing wrong with me swiping money from my alzheimer’s suffering grandfather’s wallet, because he’ll never know the difference, and will certainly never figure out that I’m stealing from him.
Sorry, not buying it.
Which would be relevant in a world where telepathy exists, and/or one in which a “relationship” is a unitary thing which is always and absolutely symmetrical for both parties. Neither of which is true, and in fact, that state of relationships is that they are NEVER equal or perfectly symmetrical.
Yes, the cheating spouse has the power to fuck everything up, either via indiscretion or directly informing their partner. I reject the idea that it a moral imperative that they SHOULD.
nothing wrong with me *not confessing to* stealing
Yes, the cheating spouse has the power to fuck everything up, either via indiscretion or directly informing their partner. I reject the idea that it a moral imperative that they SHOULD.
Since you have rejected the concept of morality that would seem obvious.
Actually, you are the one doing the conflating.
I explicitly said that the people involved in the relationship determine whether or not it is a good on. I did NOT say that there is no such things as a good or a bad relationship.
You on the other hand, are attempting to say that there is some sort of external standard. You are LITERALLY making a judgment while at the same time claiming that you have no authority to impose your values on the parties in the hypothetical.
You are LITERALLY making a judgment while at the same time claiming that you have no authority to impose your values on the parties in the hypothetical.
I may not have a authority to impose my values, but the spouse who was cheated on has all the right to impose their values on their relationship. You’re in a relationship that is exclusive, you went outside the exclusivity, and you somehow think that hiding the cheating is somehow within the values of that exclusive relationship? Bullshit.
Either you’re a nihilist, or you’re post-hoc rationalizing. You’re making no logical sense otherwise.
Yes, because judgment and authority are not the same thing. I have no right to punish people for doing things I think are despicable. But I certainly have the right to recognize the immorality.
You are arguing that the lying by the cheater is a moral act, because telling the truth damages the relationship. I am arguing that the cheating did the damage, and that the lie is almost inevitably motivated by the cheater’s desire to get away with their act, not out of desire to spare pain to the spouse.
I am also arguing that a person who cheats once is highly likely to cheat again, and that a relationship in which one partner is lying to the other about a fundamental betrayal can not be a healthy one, even if that spouse does not know about the lie.
Yes?
I guess it’s a good thing I never wrote than now isn’t it?
There is no moral solution to an immoral situation. I have never claimed that it’s ok to cheat on someone. Never have, never will. In Fatal Attraction I root for Michael Douglas to die.
Cheating is bad, bad, bad, and cheaters are icky-poo badpeople. Ok?
I am not convinced that the “bad” of having one spouse “living a lie” is somehow less bad than the “bad” of that same spouse having their marriage destroyed, particularly if the offender repents and reform. I am also convinced that it is possible for the offender to repent and reform without destroying the marriage supra.
No. I am arguing that doing more harm is worse than doing less harm. Doing less harm is not being moral. Morality is not a single binary value.
Agreed.
This is all outside the realm of my knowledge or concern.
Be that as it may, it is uncertain that telling the other spouse will improve the health of the relationship.
I am not convinced that the “bad” of having one spouse “living a lie” is somehow less bad than the “bad” of that same spouse having their marriage destroyed, particularly if the offender repents and reform. I am also convinced that it is possible for the offender to repent and reform without destroying the marriage supra.
And I’m convinced that it’s not their call. Criminals don’t get to pick their own punishment. Contract breachers don’t get to choose their damages. Cheating spouses don’t get to choose the impact of their infidelity on their marriage.
The ends don’t justify the means. Lying to your spouse about something as important as infidelity is wrong, and just because you think you’re saving a bunch of heartache by hiding the infidelity doesn’t mean that the lying is any less wrong.
I’m not a utilitarian, because utilitarians can justify anything as long as it’s “less bad” in their selfish eyes than the alternative.
I am not saying the lying is a moral act. I’m saying the guilt is the punishment the cheater should bear instead of splitting it down the middle with the aggrieved party.
I’m assuming you mean in some sort of moral sense, because in every other sense, it is their call. It’s part of being a sentient entity with free will.
But… they do. They have to make a second decision and have to take responsibility for the consequences for that second decision. The initial infidelity does not absolve them from that. They have to choose to have their kids hate one or both of their parents, or to expose themselves to domestic violence.
This is an idiosyncrasy of mine but I (and an awful lot of other people) distinguish between the immoral thing to do and the wrong thing to do. Lying is always immoral, and in this particular case, I’ve never claimed that the lie becomes less wrong.
There’s something to that, but most other systems are either utilitarianism in a new dress or an arbitrarily long list of special pleadings and exceptions.
No. I am arguing that doing more harm is worse than doing less harm.
I agree. I just disagree that lying does less damage. Even if the cheater never cheats again, and the one cheated on never learns of the infidelity, there is still harm being done by the lie.
The relationship has a new stress, the stress of the cheater knowing that they have betrayed their spouse, that they have gotten away with that betrayal, that they have put one over on the spouse. I think that is almost certain to show up in various ways.
Additionally, whatever flaw led to the cheating, whether it is a flaw internal to the cheater, or a flaw in the relationship, or both is now much less susceptible of repair because addressing it is likely to expose the infidelity.
Finally, if the infidelity is exposed in some other way, or the cheater lets it slip in an argument, the lie is now an additional betrayal that has to be dealt with and makes reconciliation more painful and less likely.
I am not a Kantian; I accept that there are plenty of lies that are morally neutral, and even some that are positively moral, but lies to avoid the consequences of wrongdoing are not examples.
I am not saying the lying is a moral act. I’m saying the guilt is the punishment the cheater should bear instead of splitting it down the middle with the aggrieved party.
Do you think it is possible to suffer that guilt on the basis you describe without coming to feel resentment toward your spouse or alternatively to become mired in the false humility that comes from attributing all worthlessness to yourself and reveling in your own suffering as deserved?
That’s a good question. I hadn’t thought that far along the track, so … I don’t know.
They have to choose to have their kids hate one or both of their parents, or to expose themselves to domestic violence.
Good, maybe that will be a deterrent to cheating in the future. (Minus the domestic violence. If that’s in the equation, there are ways to confess without being in harm’s way.)
You’re missing the good side to confessing, most of which lands on the altruistic side of the equation.
The spouse and kids get a more clear picture of the (lack of) character of the cheater. Rather than living in a facade of happiness, they are made to confront reality, which is that the cheater valued sex over their responsibilities to the family. Not pleasant news to receive, but highly valuable news to receive.
Further, the spouse gets to decide whether or not they can find somebody better in the open market. Divorce and eventual remarriage may be a better option than staying in this “healthy” marriage. Divorce and staying single may be better, too.
If the marriage stays together and both spouses earnestly work toward resolution, the relationship usually comes out healthier than it has ever been. The cheating spouse has to accept responsibility and the restrictions that come with regaining trust, but once that trust has been rebuilt, usually the marriage is very strong. I know a couple in my wife’s extended family who took that route, and their current marriage is something to be emulated.
Finally, whatever relationship/character flaws are leading to the cheating are exposed for inspection and resolution. Whether it be that the cheater simply doesn’t have the self-discipline to keep their clothes on around attractive people at work or that there’s a core flaw in the relationship causing them to seek the attention and affection of others, it has to be addressed and resolved.
As somebody who has been cheated on (in a non-married relationship), I wanted to know. I forgave the first time and it happened again and again until I broke the relationship off. It did a number to my self-confidence to go through that, but I came out stronger. For the first time in my life, I had real standards for the women I dated, and that led to meeting and marrying Mrs. trshmnstr. I don’t think that I would’ve fared nearly as well if I had learned about the infidelity later, if at all.
Ahdan, thanks adding another hobby to my collection, question, or two.
Are you doing Astrological reading with the minor arcana?
If so, where do you start, there are several opinions. Always fun! Keep it up please.
You have to embrace the contradictions:
https://glibertarians.com/2019/02/ifla-the-scientific-experiment-edition-of-the-horoscope-for-the-week-of-feb-3/
I’m not planning on printing the minor arcana as part of the Glibertarian Tarot, since I don’t know that I could find a good Glib correlation for each of them. So when It finally exists, I’ll just make sure it gets printed on standard size. Yes the backs won’t match, but that will be ok.
Here’s a thoughtful view of the residential real estate market and how it affects the general economy if you could use a low-tech introduction to the subject.
The United States may or may not enter a recession this year, but if it does, housing is unlikely to be the cause, because it never really recovered in the first place.
Tucson got hit hard. The lower to middle market just now recovered. The upper market is still probably 20% under peak prices.
Here’s the kicker for me:
It’s also the segment of the market most impacted by codes and proffers. All the asshats say they want affordable housing, but never actually do anything to reduce the cost of building such housing.
Much of the problem is that while job growth has been strong, home prices have gone up faster than incomes.
That’s definitely the case here in DC and back in Dallas. You can’t buy a single family home within 30 miles of DC without spending $400k. Realistically, you’re looking at $600k in most places.
In Dallas, $200k seems to be bare minimum, when it was $125k only 3 or 4 years ago. $300k used to mean a quite nice house, now it means a very average house.
I don’t think that housing will kick off the next recession, but I think that the housing market is going to be in for another downward adjustment when the recession hits. If people aren’t buying when employment is full and money is free flowing, what, exactly, is going to happen when the gears get gummed up a bit?
We are hoping to time the market to get a good deal on our next house. Unfortunately, that means the recession needs to hold off another 3 or 4 years for us to be ready.
job growth has been strong
There’s our problem: the aritcle’s bogus calibration.
Median income level is infinitely better a descriptor of what’s going on with most people. I don’t mind rich people getting richer at all, but GDP is Gross by definition . . . it’s right there in the name. If we want to roll around in the semantics mud, it would make more sense to say we haven’t been in a recovery at all than to say we are in a recovery that only helps rich people.
And it’s not that I think that everyone should own a house, but employing roofers in bulk can only be driven by the median folk buying lots of median houses.
yup.
I think it’s worth noting that the real median housing price in the US is currently 33% higher than in 2000 , but the real median household income is basically stagnant since then.
Here in l.a., 600 buys a shit box in a crappy neighborhood. My house is 850 according to zillow. Trying to buy but it don’t look very feasible.
There’s a reason some of us live in Deplorableland.
Tosses another stick of wood in the stove.
I remember my first job working much with anyone from outside the South and the stories they told: insurance in Chicago, rent in Philly . . . man, don’t you people know how to use a road? F those prices; Vote with your feet!
But not really ’cause I already have stuff that’s better than scrapple. I don’t want new neighbors; I’m really confused about my American brothers: I like lots of folk from lots of places, but I don’t want my world to much change. I like everything being slow and sultry and all Hot Tin Roof. I don’t want any advice from California or New York; I liked it better when everyone was a hick and were too busy cherishing their ridiculous mortgages and never dreamed of invading.
But I generally like people, so I’m sure it will work out . . . no longer than I plan on living anyway.
I liked it better when everyone ( thought I ) was a hick
But not really ’cause I already have stuff that’s better than scrapple.
The rest of your paragraph makes sense, but this sentence does not.
Hmm, scrapple and pineapple pizza?
Scrapple on pizza would be good. Pineapple not.
I’m really curious to know what’s better than scrapple.
For shizzle. Our house is a broken-down, 80-year-old Cape Cod a block away from public housing. You can’t park two trucks in a row on my property; I think the actual square footage of the house is around 1000. It’s loosely appraising at $320k, with comparables hitting anywhere from $350k to $500k, depending. We’re trying to get into house #2 in the next two years, and that’s gonna be a tight crunch. Our price range is around $450k, and if we head a half-hour north or south that gets us 2000 sqft on up to an acre of land.
My house probably cost at least $250K more to build (land, etc. included) 10 years ago than we paid for it. And is probably about that much below replacement cost.
The DC metro has been pretty well insulated from the national economy simply because the federal government is a massive impact on our local economy. When you add in consultants and contractors, it’s the biggest employer by leaps and bounds, and it never gets smaller or spends less money.
TPTB:
I just sent a note through the submission portal about an article that i have written up. is that the standard Process? How long till i’m famous?
And here I thought ‘submission portal’ was just another name for glory-hole.
*silently holds the “shhhhh” finger up to mouth*
STEVE SMITH SUBMIT DONATION TO EVERY PORTAL!
You are 1/2 way there, just being a Glib. Lets see , 1/2 famous would be, hmm, carry the 1. Oh yeah, you are infamous. SB knows everything but she’ll only tell you the day you’ll be the most recognized. Now I’m already waiting…
…for your exciting article.
I thought “infamous” meant more than famous.
Yes my friend and when you are in Europe, you are incontinent.
How long till i’m [sic] famous?
You get your fifteen minutes just like everybody else, d00d.
STEVE SMITH SEE NOTE. LIKE IDEA. SEND PLEASE. STEVE SMITH EDIT! HIM GOOD EDITOR.
YOU GET EMAIL WHEN IT READY AND SCHEDULED.
FREE CASCADIA!
Erm. Yes… Mr. SMITH, to where would i direct the missive?
Leon, just send it to the same box.
Sitting at the bar at a local bar and grill. When we got here at 11:20, there was already a wait for a table. +1 eating at the bar. You get to sit right down.
Apparently we’re not the only ones using a cold, wet Sunday as an excuse for day drinking.
That sound pretty good right now, but I’m too lazy to get out of the house. I need to see if there’s any booze in the fridge, because I need to spend a few hours catching up with my work after spending 12-14 hours/day in meetings last week.
I’m doing my part to stimulate the economy. We’re getting new leather furniture delivered today. ?
Corinthian leather?
DE plane! De plane!
cool; I’m sitting on a couch that stimulated Italy two decades ago and gave two goons in a Fort Worth warehouse something to do for eight minutes
amazing how much pewk and cats it has survived
On a Sunday?
Yup. Raymour & Flanigan delivers on Sundays.
When AOC gets rid of all the fart making cows there’ll be a glut of leather. All F150s will come stock with full leather seats, until the leather is used up, then back to clear plastic. No, that would be petro so cotton, I guess. You have reached the top rung, Sean, good on you.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/can_you_ever_forgive_me
just excellent: dry, witty, never insults your intelligence; but: no boobs
adviso: helps if you have read something other than PhotoShop manuals
“no boobs”
Pass.
Secessionists
“This legislation would create a working group that would study the short and long term economic ramifications, including economic opportunities, of splitting the state,” according to the bill. “It would also examine the legal ramifications and precedents for dividing the State into two parts, and would determine the ‘up front cost’ of doing so, such as creating two new State government apparatuses.”
Downstate New York would include the five boroughs of New York City and Nassau, Rockland, Suffolk and Westchester counties — essentially Long Island and the two counties just above the city. Upstate New York would include every other county in the state — all 53 of them.
The population, based on the 2010 Census, would actually be higher in Downstate (11,957,128) than Upstate (7,420,974) despite the massive size difference.
“There’s all kind of things being passed [in Albany] that aren’t necessarily of upstate interest,” Jordan told The Associated Press.
But what would that do to the Electoral College? We can’t let NYC lose their influence over the hinterland hicks.
There were an estimated 8.6m people living in New York City in 2017.
In 1776, there were an estimated 2.5m people living in the 13 colonies.
New York City has more than 3x as many people in it now as the entire country had when we rebelled against Great Britain. Wyoming, our least populated state, has more than 100,000 people more than the most populous state had just before the revolution (Virginia).
We need A LOT more states in this union to ensure people are properly represented at all levels of government. I’d be in favor of an amendment that requires any petition signed by a group of 192k or more people (the average colony population in 1776) to secede from their host state and form a new one must be granted.
But then how could we enact our progressive dreams?
By going to sleep?
That’s a great point
except that popular suffrage hasn’t proven much. I’ve put my finger to the air and just don’t much like what any of my neighbors are thinking; the less that is up for a vote the better.
Don’t get me wrong: I suppose if the people are to suffer under some sort of leadership, it should at least be of the sort of nonsense that at least the majority begged for.
I fantasize more and more in an an-cap vein.
I think I’m with you here. I’m in a distinct political minority here. No matter how you carve Maryland up, I’m going to be surrounded by Progressives. As we speak the General Assembly is holding open hearings on a ton of anti-gun legislation that will turn Maryland into an even more hostile state for gun owners. If I were to go door-to-door in my neighborhood I would bet that 90% of the people I spoke to would be in favor of banning AR-15s because they’re scary assault weapons and nobody needs a weapon that kills people except criminals. If there’s one issue that drives my voting behavior, it’s the 2A, and that means every local election I fight a rear-guard action against Progressive Democrats. Splitting the state might give me closer places to relocate that would suit my political interests more closely, but it might also hasten the decline of where I currently live.
Not to mention the hydraulic despotism the Upstate could then exercise. Oh, you’d like some of *our* water?
I’ve said for a while I’d be fine with these kinds of arrangements. It should be easier to break states up. It might even prevent a crackup of the nation as a whole.
I can’t imagine why upstate doesn’t want to join in on this fun:
It’s like they’re not even interested in the important stuff. Rubes.
Stop. I can only get so hard.
But yeah, they’ll never let us leave.
Also- how much would the wall cost?
The drunk bleach blonde that was sitting next to us at the bar tried to get us to do a champagne shooter with her and her friends. At 35, I would have done it. At 55, I know better.
There’s a good chance she’ll be involved in a three way sometime this afternoon that she won’t remember tomorrow.
three way
Man, the chance to disappoint TWO women at once !
Mmf. I’m back in my recliner watching golf.
OK, so the woman is twice as disappointed.
Spud’s afternoon pictured.
https://archive.li/LtQ4O/d00c97556b347f3720aae26ec55410462158bb40.jpg
11:52 Pacific time zine. Epic laundry operation complete. Early morning drinking. I wam wasted.
https://youtu.be/K89HUW3DIEk
When’s the move to Rainland?
I am at church contemplating remorse, repentance, forgiveness, and absolution.
Not dicks.
What did the doe say when she came out of the forest?
“I’m not doing that again for two bucks.”
How dare you make me inappropriately LOL while in church.
?
contemplating remorse, repentance, forgiveness, and absolution and posting to Glibertarians.
Sounds like inappropriate laughter was divine retribution. 😉
God has a perverse sense of humor.
When I die, I expect to find him laughing.
I can only hope to be greeted by a jolly, laughing God.
Now I’m suddenly picturing the judgement day as stepping up and meeting Sam Kinison, who throws an arm around me and says “hell of a show, wasn’t it”?
How do the does entertain themselves on a Saturday night?
They go into town and blow a few bucks.
Then I became involved with a beautiful woman who believed that the value of Truth was in its utility, and had extremely persuasive arguments for that point of view (and by very persuasive arguments I mean “but dat ass doe.”)
Let me guess: “I’m a master of having it both ways” is something she liked saying?
She was basically a house cat in human form.
One thing she said in re: lying to people was that other people didn’t have a right to the truth about things that weren’t their business. She of course had very definite opinions about what things were and were not other people’s business. Like the first time we got together she didn’t think it was my business to know that she was married (since she was in the process of a divorce.) Which made it extremely awkward when I met her husband.
Yikes. That’s worse than I imagined.
One thing she said in re: lying to people was that other people didn’t have a right to the truth about things that weren’t their business.
*nods along agreeingly*
She of course had very definite opinions about what things were and were not other people’s business.
*keeps nodding, but with a skeptical wince*
Like the first time we got together she didn’t think it was my business to know that she was married (since she was in the process of a divorce.) Which made it extremely awkward when I met her husband.
*facepalm*
Ditto.
I did not feel it necessary to tell him who I had been sleeping with. What good would that have possibly done?
The truth is not always the best thing.
Yusef, I saw the news about your job when I caught up on some old threads. Congratulations!
You mentioned something about them wanting you to clean up some messes. Don’t be surprised if those messes are worse than you thought. I’ve known a few people, me being one of them, that found themselves in that situation.
Then I became involved with a beautiful woman who believed that the value of Truth was in its utility
Ask not what you can do for Truth, but rather ask what Truth can do for you.
PSA: The parking lots of Asian groceries are just as hazardous here as they were in California.
Some stereotypes are true.
You jews always find something to complain about.
The H Mart in Burlington MA agrees with you.
Now, if only Montana had an H Mart.
Save us, Bill Weld!
Is there anything left of the Republican Party Bill Weld once belonged to? Any lingering belief in the rule of law, the efficiency of markets, fiscal discipline, or the need for honesty and integrity in high elected officials?
Bless our former governor for trying to find out. Weld is making a primary run against President Trump. So far, he’s the only Republican with the guts to do so, and he’s not mincing words.
“We cannot sit passively as our precious democracy slips quietly into darkness,” he said in Bedford, N.H., recently.
The thing is, just about every Republican in Washington is sitting passively, shrugging at Trump’s daily desecrations of his office, barely batting an eye at the notion that the president might have obstructed justice, or could be the asset of a hostile foreign government. They just lie down and let him walk all over them — and trample our moral norms as a nation.
———
The knock on Weld is that he is vainglorious, that ego is driving him here. Maybe. But the fact remains that, right now, there is only one person willing to take on Trump, and to stand up against the disaster today’s Republican Party has wrought.
Whether he has a real shot or not, this is Weld’s finest hour.
That’s nice. That chick should send her application to the Bulwark. She’d fit right in with the rest of Kristol’s shit flinging NeverTrumper monkeys.
Such poetry ?
I assume that’s an appeal to his base, a.k.a. East Coast media.
The WaPo crowd is totally gonna vote GOP next year, I can see it now so clearly….
Well, no, but Weld strikes me as a little like McCain. He believes the media are on his side.
An update:
My sister-in-law died yesterday.
Based on an MRI done last Monday, there was some hope that she would come back to us, largely (but by no means completely) unscathed. In the intervening days, she experienced diffuse cranial vasospasming (choking off blood-flow throughout her brain), pneumonia and a C. difficile infection of her gut, as well as indications that her pain responses were severely abnormal. She was otherwise unresponsive.
She was a wonderful person with an iron will and determination when it came to the interests of her family. I suspect that our family dynamics will change significantly now that she’s not here as the gravity well around which the rest of her immediate family orbited. She died two weeks short of retiring on her 65th birthday.
Life is still beautiful (a sentiment she would have heartily agreed with), but there are ugly days. We will, of course, get through this, since it’s how we’re built. I’ll be guiding my brother through the process of being an executor, since I’ve previously done it for my Mom.
I guess that’s all.
My condolences.
I’m so sorry.
Sorry to hear that. My parents are getting older and I think about that inevitable moment a lot.
You are a good brother. My sympathy to you and your family.
My sincere condolences, BEAM.
My condolences, BEAM.
So sorry. Hang in there.
Oh BEAM, I am so sorry.
Awww, so sorry to hear this.
You’ve got friends here, so lean on us to drop a smidgen of cheer and humor in when you’re dealing with the shit.
I’m really sorry to hear that.
I’m sorry to hear that.
Having some hope and then having it dashed liked that makes it all the more tough. Sorry for your loss.
Sorry to hear, that is tough.
Sorry for your loss.
Sorry for your loss, BE.
My condolences.
Our condolences
Deeply sorry.
Sorry 🙁
I’m sorry.
Hang in there.
Much less surprising, and forgive this tangent, we add an aunt to our clay hill down in the piney woods tomorrow. It’s a philosophical event for us since most of us are long lived. We’re starting our third century of adding to the inventory, a cycle as natural as rain; she had lived her whole life in big Birmingham, but we all come home to the little church when we’re spent. My parents will step over their own spots as well as mine to reach her graveside, and everyone we have ever been related to will silently attend from their odd spots in the adjacent acres. We don’t think it’s macabre at all, only a reminder if needed to savor every day and to take good care of family: it flies by, I’m sure you know.
Be well.
I offer my sincere sympathies. Lean on your friends and loved ones.
I’m so sorry.
My prayers are with you and your family. Good on you for being the go to guy. It’s a shitty job, but so important.
An argument that all great philosophers have tried and failed to disprove.
Being inappropriate as usual, but why don’t people ever say, “He looks like shit for an octogenarian”?
I don’t know that I’ve seen a particularly bad looking octogenarian that wasn’t an exhumed corpse of a younger person.
BTW NotAdahn, what drew you to astrology, Tarot etc in the first place?
Glib answer: Doug Henning
Honest answer: The whole idea of occult knowledge has always been fascinating to me, whether it’s magic incantations, Freemasonry, or other conspiracies. Then the actual practice of these things has strong links to theater (which I enjoy).
The performance aspect? I can see why that would be compelling.
I have largely avoided astrology, mostly because of my mother’s cautions. Her half sister got into it and it pretty much took over her life and decision making. My mother dabbled enough to feel that it was real in some sense but was also opening the door to the influence of other, not angelic, powers.
The Bible warns us away from astrology not because it’s a waste of time, but because it can easily take you over, not freeing you, but chaining you.
My aunt did a detailed birth chart for me when I was 10 or so. Said I’d be a leader, have multiple marriages, and several other things that I laughed at and dismissed back then.
Now here I am on marriage #3 and the manager of a new engineering department.
Is having a birth chart the totally pegs your personality any less credible than a Myers Briggs test that does the same?
Aries ENTJ here. Look out.
I should have added, if the moon can pull on our waters enough to affect tides, is it plausible that other planetary bodies affect our brains in ways we can’t understand yet!
no
LOL. Yeah, I know you’re right.
Astrology probably generates self fulfilling prophecies more Than anything.
Because most shitty looking people die before they reach 70 let alone 80?
Knew someone would actually answer the question. Had my money on UnCiv.
Has he been around today?
Because they actually made it that far?
i don’t care what any of you say, Moonstruck is a great movie.
Amen, brother!
My hubs and I rewatched last weekend and we’ve had marathon bedroom and kitchen sessions ever since.
To the family!
“That moon! That crazy moon!”
Bella Luna! Why don’t you howl?
Loved the old grandfather.
“I’m so confused”
It was one of my Grandpa’s favorite movies. Every time I watch it I get choked up missing him.
I hope all is well there. All my best to the bass player!
I’m confused. Does this have anything to do with the lying you were talking about?