There’s a piece of legislation that has been invaluable in the rise of social media, the Communications Decency Act. In particular, Section 230 of the Act says “No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider.” Without Section 230, it’s hard to fathom that Facebook or Twitter would ever have been able to surmount the potential legal liability they would otherwise face from civil lawsuits over IP infringements, libel claims, or threats that are posted to their websites on a regular basis. They’d be potentially liable for whatever anyone decided to post on their sites.
Interestingly, though, the provision wasn’t even created with social media in mind. The Act was passed in 1996, before social media was even a glint in Mark Zuckerberg’s eye. The provision was included in the Act ensure that internet service providers or e-mail providers weren’t liable for anything that anyone decided to transmit on their services. And that makes sense. You wouldn’t hold Verizon or AT&T responsible for anything anyone says on the phone. They don’t control what people say on the phone, so they shouldn’t be responsible.
The internet shouldn’t be any different.
But, as the internet advanced, the logical extension of this principle went to websites themselves. And that still sort of makes sense, at least conditionally. If the owners of the website don’t control what is posted or not, they shouldn’t be liable for what people do post. The key distinction is whether the owners of the website are providing an internet service or whether they are providing internet content. In Fair Housing vs. Roommates.com, the courts said you couldn’t claim to be a service provider if you weren’t a passive pass-through of information provided by others or simply a facilitator of expression, you had moved on to become a content provider and weren’t immune from lawsuits under Section 230.
Today, many conservatives, and even libertarians are concerned about the editorial lines that are increasingly taking hold in the social media universe. In their attempts to filter out “fake news” or “Russian bots” or “disruptive voices” or “hate speech”, they are increasingly deplatforming conservatives and libertarians for behaviors that they show no concern with coming from the left. We know that the social media giants are culturally very much aligned with the “woke” left and many claim that they’re rigging the public discourse in favor of the left.
While some conservatives have suggested addressing this by breaking up the social media giants or subjecting them to regulation, an alternative that many of us have advocated is reform of Section 230 to make it clear that you’re a publisher if you’re pushing an editorial line. You can have rules of the road and can forbid threatening, harassing, or inciteful posts, but your rules have to be objective, viewpoint-neutral, and universally applied for you to retain Section 230 protection. Otherwise, you’re a publisher and should be treated as such.
This isn’t an idea without some controversy. As believers in the free market, many argue, conservatives and libertarians should let the market sort itself out and take their business elsewhere. As private businesses, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter shouldn’t be under any obligation to provide a voice for those whose views they find abhorrent. And, as Ken White of Popehat argues, it’s a stretch to suggest that the social media providers are the people creating the content. Even many of the advocates of Section 230 reform suggest the move goes against the grain of their libertarianism, arguing that this is a situation just to rife with abuse.
I think these concerns are misguided. Far from being a violation of libertarian principle, Section 230 reform would be a move to impose free market discipline on the social media giants. The question of whether the social media giants are original content creators is utterly beside the point. Of course they aren’t! But, Section 230 itself doesn’t address whether the service provider is the creator of the original content. It’s about whether they are to be treated as publishers.
And it’s clear that they are acting as publishers If you’re maintaining an editorial line, you’re not acting simply as a passive pass-through or a facilitator of expression. You’re doing pretty much the opposite. You’re acting to define what is acceptable and what is unacceptable expression on your platform. If you’re demonetizing Stephen Crowder for making a side reference to homosexuality while maintaining a guy like Carlos Maza after he specifically encourages assaulting conservatives, you can’t honestly say you’re just an open platform for people to exchange ideas. If you’re banning Carl Benjamin while giving Antifa a pass, the last thing you’re doing is acting as a neutral pass-through. You’re acting as a publisher deciding what they will and will not publish.
And that is and should be their right. On that, I completely agree with Section 230 reform sceptics. If you believe in free speech, then you have to believe that people cannot justly be compelled to speech any more than they can be censored. And demanding that social media provide a platform to conservatives is just as much a compulsion of speech as insisting Rush Limbaugh devote a show to singing the praises of Elizabeth Warren or that MSNBC devote a day to critiques of climate change.
What the social media giants don’t have a right to is special favor from the government. If they’re acting as a publisher, then they should be subject to the same laws and same standards as any other publisher. To treat them more favorably is to grant a subsidy to established and entrenched interests over brick-and-mortar competitors, as well as new entrants in the social media space.
For just about any other industry the injustice of such a policy would be glaringly obvious. Imagine if the government said the hotel industry or the movie theater industry would be exempt from labor laws or health and safety laws. Or worse still if the government said that certain hotels and certain movie theaters would be exempt from those laws. Libertarians would rightly be up in arms about such a policy. They’d rightly note such behavior as just the sort of crony capitalism that libertarianism rejects. The same applies to the social media giants acting as publishers. You might say that the laws holding publishers responsible for any libel or IP infringement or harassment they publish are bad laws. A libertarian case can be made for or against them. But, holding some publishers liable and exempting others is the least libertarian response. It is, simply put, the government openly picking winners and losers.
Moreover, the social media giants’ hidden imposition of an editorial line has poisoned so much of social media culture. To understand this, imagine that, rather than the fashionable progressive causes of the day, the social media giants took an editorial line that was “pro-seltzer”. They’d happily let commentary advocating the benefits of drinking seltzer and actively deplatform anyone arguing to the contrary. The public relying on social media for information, believing they were getting truly decentralized discussion about seltzer would only see discussions about how great seltzer is and how terrible those awful people who want to suggest people might want to drink milk are. Without understanding that the social media are only telling you the pro-seltzer position, a good many readers would become convinced, not only of the pro-seltzer position, but also of the social media morality in advocating for seltzer. The non-seltzer people, unsurprisingly, only militate when they realize the public is being lied to about them and their positions. And the less radicalized, lacking a means to evaluate the claims of the genuine anti-seltzer extremists, since the entire anti-seltzer argument has been excised from the public discussion where ideas can be tested, tend to be pushed to the more radical position.
I respect the social media giants. They took an ambiguity in the law and leveraged it to build a whole new means of communication that offers tremendous opportunity for public discourse. But, with success comes hubris. For the social media giants, that hubris has led them to abandon any claim to that ambiguity. They’re now acting as publishers in the most obvious and clear-cut manner one can find. And, in addition to being an injustice in its own right, that preferential treatment is leading them to behave in a way that is rendering our public discourse increasingly toxic. To set things right, we don’t need to regulate the social media giants and we don’t need to break them up. We simply need to resolve that ambiguity to make clear that they’re either publishers, with all the legal liabilities that any other publisher faces, or they’re public fora where they don’t get to dictate what viewpoints deserve an audience.
I like milk,
Great read! Thanks
White supremacist confirmed!
Western Cultural Supremacist, you mean….
Thought of you Yusef on Saturday. Was in Wisconsin Dells and went out to eat at a place that shares a parking lot with a true motel (all exterior doors) and in the parking lot was probably 100 people cooking out and partying. Ez-ups and coolers abounded and beers were being drunk.
Forgot to take a photo… dumb
It can be fun, meeting people is the best part
Thanks for the write up. You’ve given me much to think about.
You can have rules of the road and can forbid threatening, harassing, or inciteful posts, but your rules have to be objective, viewpoint-neutral, and universally applied for you to retain Section 230 protection.
How exactly are they going to write the reform so that the meaning of those words aren’t stretched to include all the other Orwellian stretches that are being made everywhere else?
I think you could get there by simply saying that posts which violate another law can be taken down. IOW, if a post constitutes incitement of a crime under another statute, it can be taken down. “Incitement”, for example:
Applying this to antifa and the fringier alt-right would allow some of their posts to be taken down, and by extension for the posters to be barred from the platform. An editorial decision to only take down the alt-right but leave antifa up on your platform would be an editorial decision that would subject the platform to loss of Section 230 protections.
Incitement to riot is illegal under U.S. federal law.[20]
Which kicks the can, to some extent, but at least maintains the neutrality of Section 230.
Incitement to riot is illegal under U.S. federal law.[20]
Should be inside the blockquote.
I’d accept that standard if it’s enforceable/enforced. That word “penaltax” doesn’t give me confidence in the judiciary.
And then they’d do an end run by removing under Euro law (or China or Iran) and use that as a defense.
Interesting. If we allowed “illegal” to cover the laws of other countries, I still think they would have to do so even-handedly, by removing everything illegal under the law of any country. So (and I’m making this up), Facebook would have to remove all posts showing women with uncovered hair, if that’s not allowed in Iran.
Or, they could remove the posts going off the location of the person viewing the site. Which, while cumbersome, is at least technically possible (for a given value of possible).
Talk about a can of worms, since they would have to have a huge staff that was expert in the laws of every country.
Or by shunting users to a “we’re sorry your laws are stupid” page like with the Eurozone’s new GDPR pages.
I seem to remember that /. (Slashdot for the youngsters out there) only removed comments under court order. Now, you could get moderated down to a score that meant most people wouldn’t see your posts, but they were still there. Back when I was a regular there, I seem to recall there had only been a handful of comments ever removed, and there were posts commenting about it.
Of course, /. left the libertarian-leaning realm a long time ago, and I haven’t been back in a long time.
Good ol’ Slashdot. That’s a good allegory for this Section 230 discussion. On the one hand, you can take your shiny new mod points and spend them diligently according to good principles of unbiased moderation, putting you in a small but virtuous group of people, or you can use them as most other mods and shit all over the comments you don’t like. The problem with the virtuous position is that all that moral high ground does you no good once the biased shitheads have erased all memory of opposing views.
Theoretically, that was the point of metamoderation. But that was even more of an annoyance, it didn’t help that editors had unlimited Mod points, weren’t subject ot metamoderation, and some of them used them with the zeal of the modern progressive. There was a time when you could have good debates there, with most people arguing in good faith. That was already gone when I left.
It’s a shame, because it was an inspired attempt at a legitimately unbiased community moderation system, and it really seemed to work for a while because so many of the people involved took it seriously.
Yeah. The design of the system had a lot of good checks and balances. I’d say giving the editors the unlimited Mod points was the only real flaw. It was still subject to attacks by those acting in bad faith (Metamoderating anything positive to points of view you disagree with as bad to prevent the mod from getting points in the future).
Its kind of virtuous Top Men example since as soon as CmdrTaco bailed, it went all the way to shit.
I thought the “today me, tomorrow you” aspect of mod points was a good idea, though, but once the community as a majority goes to shit that doesn’t really help.
A well-written confirmation of my biases. Therefore, great article.
I remember back in the day folks were trying to sue youtube for IP violations and slanderous content. Youtube’s stance was that there were milions of people posting stuff every day and there was no way for them to control what went up. They’re now poclaiming they’re taking control of the content, so they should get ready to lawyer up.
Which does nothing to prevent people from defaming you on platforms you don’t use.
Indeed. Of course, providing a legal benefit in exchange for meeting certain standards is not demanding that people provide a platform to someone they disagree with. They have the choice of exercising editorial control, and taking responsibility for the editorial decisions they make.
Not really my take. They mostly built their platforms before they started abusing their control of their platforms under the protection of Section 230.
I agree completely with this approach.
I think the bigger libertarian objection to Section 230 reform comes from those who don’t think there should be any redress for defamation at all. A position I disagree with. But once you agree that there should be civil liability for defamation, the current state of Section 230 and the social media platforms becomes pretty indefensible.
I think the bigger libertarian objection to Section 230 reform comes from those who don’t think there should be any redress for defamation at all.
That’s fair. And I think I address it. If you think there shouldn’t be redress for defamation, then you should advocate it as a universal, not as a privilege extended to certain players.
“or they’re public fora where they don’t get to dictate what viewpoints deserve an audience.”
So it’s either become liable or be nationalized?
No, it’s discard the legal shield that prevents you from being held to the same legal standards as others or accept the responsibilities that benefiting from that shield entails.
The issue I foresee happening is that this just shifts the test from the company to the courts. Now fedgov gets to decide whether deleting “My wife’s cousin made $10382948 cam whoring and bought a Yugo” subjects a website to liability for the content posted to the site.
That may be a fairly easy issue to resolve, but what about sites that have a “no politics” policy or other moderation rules to keep on topic? Yes, theoretically section 230 is focused on viewpoint and not on subject matter, but that line gets really blurry in real life.
I’m not against reforming section 230, but I think it trades in one can of worms for a slightly smaller can of government issued worms.
Yes, theoretically section 230 is focused on viewpoint and not on subject matter, but that line gets really blurry in real life.
True that.
Ah, the Canter & Siegel defense.
>>My wife’s cousin made $10382948 cam whoring and bought a Yugo
is she hot? Asking for a friend.
No, they were Zimbabwe dollars.
Unfortunately, being attractive isn’t a job requirement for this profession.
Who’s the cheap bastard that only paid her 8 bucks?
/ she whips out 5 giants bags of one dollar bills and says, “they all did.”
The preferred pronouns are xhli, xhley, xhloster, and YAAAAAAAS QUEEEEEENN
Xhli comes complete with a fully functioning shenis and a self-drilled mangina.
No lactating shesticles, though. They were lost during the drilling
“Libertarians would rightly be up in arms about such a policy. ”
Yes, but I wouldn’t argue that they should be forced back under the regime but that everyone would be free of it.
The way I see it is that it’s still difficult to call them a publisher. If I run a site that is made for board games to meet and play games, and a bunch of Nazis show up, do I have to allow them to vandalize my website or forfeit immunity because I want to ban them from not keeping with the sites intent? I wouldn’t call that a publisher, but an administrator.
And if you post rules saying “Board game discussions only. Those who post on politics will be banned.”, I think you should be fine. But, if you’re banning the Nazis while a bunch of other posters write about the glories of Che Guevara, yeah, I think you cross over to publisher.
But what if your rules are “Liberals, Democrats, Socialists, and SJWs only, all others will be banned”?
Then you’ve crossed over to publisher, haven’t you? I mean you’re specifying the views and speakers, not the topics. A rule limiting commentary to discussions of Liberalism, Democratism(?), Socialism and SJWism, would be fine. But, a publisher is specifying content in a more fundamental way than topic.
So you shouldn’t be allowed to have a website for users of similar viewpoint get together, say glibertarians.com, without exposing yourself to liability?
But you can disagree with people’s viewpoints on glibertarians, you just can’t be an ass about it.
You can…but only so much of one.
Hold my beer.
What if you have a lounge section where talking politics is okay, but the Nazis have poisoned the well, so you boot them since all they do is talk politics and they don’t really contribute to the rest of the site?
One man’s silencing of disruptive behavior is another man’s viewpoint censorship.
What if you have a lounge section where talking politics is okay, but the Nazis have poisoned the well
You can take the lounge down, tolerate the Nazis, or be a publisher subject to liability for defamation. How important is your lounge to your website on board games?
Practically, I think the result (without some sort of FYTW judicial test) is most online fora being labeled publishers.
Its really hard to imagine the actual legal regime that wouldn’t have that result.
Under an “everybody or nobody” rule, this site would be a publisher, and honestly I would expect TPTB to take it down.
I think we are publishers already.
https://glibertarians.com/legal/
As believers in the free market, many argue, conservatives and libertarians should let the market sort itself out and take their business elsewhere. As private businesses, Facebook, YouTube and Twitter shouldn’t be under any obligation to provide a voice for those whose views they find abhorrent – my issue with pure free market arguments is that the current status quo is not a result of free markets but f many government interventions, so to call for free market solutions would mean to first create free market conditions.
One of my issues with social media is that while their terms and conditions are vague enough to allow whatever, i do believe there is a reasonable expectation for content creators for the rules not to be applied randomly, and content creator are putting a lot of time and work so the are somewhat justified in doing so based on some expectations, and of those change suddenly creators have a legitimate grievance
All this energy is based on a hope that one side will be weakened . . . So that some ideas will have more elbow room on what are perveived as unsavory but powerful websites.
1/ Tling others what to do with their property is unAmerican.
2/ Only a bureaucracy will be able to manage who is behaving under any new rule, and constant lawsuits will be necessary to review that bureaucracy.
3/ The person responsible for an idea is the writer. Any tradition of blaming a publisher is bad.
4/ The person responsible for an act is the acter. Any tradition of blaming a inciter is bad.
Fuck off, go build your own platform, and have,a nice day.
They’ve tried, and the same entrenched powers running the existing ecosystem have gone to great lengths to deplatform new platforms. What do you do then?
Tling others what to do with their property is unAmerican.
what about telling people they can’t use their property to violate your rights?
Only a bureaucracy will be able to manage who is behaving under any new rule, and constant lawsuits will be necessary to review that bureaucracy.
Since this would just remove immunity from defamation, it would be up to the courts in reviewing defamation cases to determine whether a given platform met the standard. I don’t see a new bureaucracy here, just one of the existing ones (and at least its a Constitutional bureaucracy, for what that’s worth).
Any tradition of blaming a publisher is bad. . . . The person responsible for an act is the acter.
But a publisher is an actor, exercising their agency to determine what they publish.
Tling others what to do with their property is unAmerican.
No less American than giving some people immunity to laws you apply to everyone else.
Only a bureaucracy will be able to manage who is behaving under any new rule, and constant lawsuits will be necessary to review that bureaucracy.
No, the courts already administer civil lawsuits on libel and IP infringement. This is just making one class of defendants no longer exempt from the law.
The person responsible for an idea is the writer. Any tradition of blaming a publisher is bad.
Except other publishers are blamed for what they publish. Exempting the social media giants is a special privilege granted them.
Tell that to the MAGA hat kid.
The appeals process is yet to play out.
Appeals are for correcting wrongs done by the court. It still means wrong has been done. The damage done initially is compounded by having to appeal it. Most of my wife’s clients are finished with their sentences by the time their appeals are ruled on. They have no recourse for the damage they’ve already suffered, just the hope that future defendants won’t suffer similarly. Well, that, and the removal of the conviction from their record.
OT, but this is weak:
He’s the one that called the West side of Baltimore third world country,
Yep, and when Trump calls him out on it he accuses him of lying.
Trump could get a lot of mileage out of just direct quotes of Dems that are unacceptable in Current Year. Hell, Clinton and Obama quotes on immigration alone would send the Left into a frenzy of self-immolation.
linton and Obama quotes on immigration
I don’t have time to find the vid, CampusReform did that.
Thay’ll just cover their ears and go ” la,la,la,lala”
This is the basic stupidity of #RESIST….Trump said it, so no matter how obviously true it is, they must vehemently deny it. That’s how you end up with people screaming about how Baltimore akshully is not a hellish shithole.
The west side of Baltimore IS a third-world country. The east side isn’t much better.
And for some reason Bernie has taken credit for trying to fix it.
Remember when the media got all huffy when Trump called NH a “drug-infested den”?
No? Because it didn’t happen. Meth-Cows nonwithstanding.
Baltimorians need to harden the fuck up.
OK. So let’s say Facebook loses it’s 230 protection.
What happens next? Who sues them when they deplatform somebody? Who sues them to deplatfrom Anti-fa?
Facebook has a contract with its users. Yes, it’s a contract of adhesion and thus prone to all sorts of ridiculousness. Regardless of their classification, they will be able to point to that contract as allowing them to do whatever they are doing.
And this is why the solution to the collapse of Facebook and Google into promoting and enabling blatant racism and sexism lies in market forces rather than the state reclassifying them for the purposes of regulation.
What happens next? Who sues them when they deplatform somebody? Who sues them to deplatfrom Anti-fa?
Nobody. They get sued for defamation that they “publish”, and if they don’t meet the standard (perhaps because of viewpoint-specific deplatforming), they lose. To qualify for Section 230, they either deplatform everyone who “incites” violence at public events, or they deplatform no one who does so.
Make no mistake, these cases won’t be easy to resolve.
Yes, they’re going to hide behind their contract. This is the most likely outcome.
I take more issue with the financial companies picking sides in the culture wars. Paypal, Mastercard, banks, etc… have all been quite busy demonetizing the left’s antagonists often at the behest of government.
It’s the new redlining.
This is the biggest issue in all of this IMHO.
the solution to the collapse of Facebook and Google into promoting and enabling blatant racism and sexism lies in market forces
So, the anti-trust enforcement approach being pushed by Repubs?
There is nothing market friendly about anti-trust. 🙄 Anti-trust is merely the government picking winners and losers.
Budding libertarian
Budding Libertarian, which quickly morphed into a discussion about Dane Cook in the comments section.
It’s a good thing I’m an eracist.
You believe in the superiority and inferiority of certain Eras?
No, he believes in the supremacy of white erasers over pink.
That’s just objective fact.
No, he hates these guys.
As is right and proper.
You shut your whore mouth.
BTW I enjoyed the article and enjoy the format, invites some good discussions.
Excellent article, but I still don’t see how reclassifying the assholes as publishers would realistically work. I still think that having rules applied consistently (like here) is sufficient. If a place turns to shit, leave. I realize that trying to develop alternatives is really expensive and challenging, but it’s the best way to fight this shit.
If you have a functioning market. Which may be questionable when it comes to social media, and which is where the anti-trust angle comes in.
I still think that having rules applied consistently (like here) is sufficient.
Current law requires the platforms to apply their standards “in good faith”. My initial reaction was that applying a double standard was not good faith, and so the big platforms could already be out of the zone. I think there are other issues with the way Section 230 is drafted though (can’t recall specifics) which means that just having a (non-content neutral) double standard isn’t enough.
I don’t see how disparate impact analysis applies here, and this all seems to turn on what is going on in a person’s head.
Defendant is shown a tweet from Angry Conservative that lead to a suspension.
“We consider that to be harassing or otherwise objectionable.”
Defendant is shown a very similar tweet from Angry Progressive that did not.
“We don’t consider that to be harassing or otherwise objectionable.”
“Why is this one harassing or otherwise objectionable, while this one is not?”
“Well, you need to look at it in context. In context, we consider them different.”
any action voluntarily taken in good faith
This is an objective “reasonable man” standard. If its not reasonable to distinguish the statements, if there is a double standard, then its not in good faith.
In some ways, the problem is the “otherwise objectionable”, which really throws a wrench in the works as far as “content-neutral” goes.
That’s a pretty low standard. As long as they aren’t on record saying they are just doing something to be a dick, I’m sure they can be counseled to express their thoughts in a way that passes the reasonable man test.
SCOTUS dropped the census question on this basis. To paraphrase Roberts: “The attorney General has disclosed reasonable bases for needing to know the citizenship of census takers. However, FYTW, bad faith, orange man bad… no citizenship question allowed.”
I’ll just quote myself later in the thread:
This is why no one believes the “There are no Obama Judges. There are no Bush Judges. There are only Judges” line.
Yes, but with an amendment that they believe it when they feel represented by a majority of the Nine. (See: liberal reaction to loosing their footing in the SCOTUS)
Seems like the way to avoid that is to name/party swap the subjects of those statements.
I still think that having rules applied consistently (like here) is sufficient.
But, that’s just it. Treating content inconsistently is what makes them publishers. They remove some views and accept others. That’s properly seen as exercising editorial discretion, or publishing.
Sorry to go OT a bit here, wdalasio. I just go the following email from the Babylon Bee. I thought I’d share it here as it is related to your fine article.
Here’s the Snopes article.
For better or worse, the media, the public, and social networks all look to Snopes for authoritative answers.
Relevant
It’s as if Morris Dees moved from SPLC to Snopes.
I don’t /man in back of the room
Snopes knows full well that it’s a satire site, so this must be a deliberate attempt to get the Bee demonetized. They just can’t stand somebody making fun of their sacred cows.
They learned from the queer, latino f*g (stunning, brave…) at Vox.
Unreal.
Fuck Snopes and their information warfare.
The Covington Catholic Teen Lost His First Court Battle, But Will Probably Win His Next
I would be multiple dollars that he won’t win his next.
What odds will you give me?
Probably 3-1. I don’t ever bet a lot of money, but you put $10 in and I’ll put $30 in.
When I make a bet, its always for the following terms: The winner directs the winnings to their charity of choice, which the loser pays directly. The loser can veto a selection if they believe that the charity violates their moral code. If the winner and loser can’t agree, they find an mutually agreed upon 3rd party to settle where it goes.
You in?
Nahh. The article gives some good reasoning, but I agree that I don’t see this going fast. Just wanted to know what Odds I could get.
I’ll be the third party, and settle that it goes to me. 🙂
The Human Fund?
At this stage of the litigation, I like his chances because the courts have to read everything as favorable to his case. The trial court essentially said that reporting which was presented as fact, and which most people would take as fact, was nonetheless opinion.
Now, fact v opinion is a blurry, blurry line. But there were statements of fact that were flat wrong and easily shown to be flat wrong (the kids blocked the Amerind’s way), cited in support of opinions (the kids were racists, which is arguably opinion, but could also be taken as a statement of fact).
Did you read the opinion? There was a table of every single assertion that Sandmann said was defamitory, with the Judges reasoning for finding it not so. The one that loos hinky to me is the “blocked” language, but there is apparently a strangely on-point precedent that says “blocked” is an opinion.
I haven’t read the opinion, no.
Its worth reading, I think. You certainly get a better understanding of the judge’s reasoning that you would from a partisan news outlet.
Volkh has a link to it in a recent post.
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.kyed.88372/gov.uscourts.kyed.88372.47.0.pdf
pp 30-36
My general reading of those legal rebuttals is that the judge is saying the charges are not of an illegal act, then it cannot be defamatory, it is merely rhetoric or opinion. By that reasoning, the WaPo could publish that a someone was a pedophile (knowing full well that they are not) with impunity, for it is not illegal to be a pedophile, only to act on it.
The WaPo and others created a fictional character and substituted it for Sandmann et al. They ignored evidence to the contrary and/or suppressed that evidence until they could no longer reasonably do so. In the meantime, they endangered the lives and futures of some teenagers for commercial gain.
Scruffy, is your beef that you think the judge is misapplying the law, or that the law is stupid?
Defamation law, here in the US, is very slanted in favor of no liability.
IANAL, but my take on it is that a jury may reasonably find that defamation had occurred, in which case the judge dismissed the case prematurely.
I read the bit on whether the kid “blocked” him. The court conflates the statements that Phillips felt threatened with the statement that the kid blocked him. Without running down the cited cases, I don’t think there is a case that says being “blocked” is not a statement that can be factually confirmed.
Since blocked means “not allowed to retreat”, per the court, Phillips’ claim that a single student blocked him (a statement he makes about the kid) cannot be true. The fact that Phillips claimed he believed that Sandmann was not allowing him to retreat is subject to evaluation by a jury – would a reasonable have believed it? Did Phillips really believe it?
This is where the court goes wrong – it is applying every presumption in favor of the defense, of Phillips’ claims, when at this stage of the proceedings it is supposed to apply every presumption in favor of the plaintiff.
The contested statement isn’t that Phillips “felt” blocked by Sandmann, its that he was blocked by Sandmann. What the court is doing here is very post-modern. The court is taking the position that because facts are believed by people, facts are thus subjective, because people’s beliefs are subjective. The test isn’t whether a speaker or publisher honestly believed a fact that turned out to be not a fact at all, the test is whether the asserted facts are actually true, or could have been verified or disproven relatively easily.
The article makes a good point though – using the judge’s reasoning, there is no such thing as defamation. Everything is just opinion.
@RCDean
How do you prove “he said, she said”?
Further rumination:
The court claims that statement that Phillips was blocked is not capable of being proved objectively incorrect because all of the underlying facts supporting this claim were disclosed.
The court goes to a case where it was claimed that somebody blocked a police car when they fell in front of it. I find this case to be highly questionable. In that case, the statement was that someone fell in front of a police car in order to prevent it from pursuing a suspect. First, this isn’t an opinion – the reason somebody does something is a question of fact, and one that courts routinely treat as such.
Second, in the case at hand, there is no imputation of motive – it is a simple claim that Sandmann blocked Phillips. Whether someone is blocking you or not is a factual question, and one that the courts are happy to treat as such in other contexts. As defined by the court (no ability to retreat), it is factually false – Sandmann did nothing to prevent Phillips from retreating. The court substitutes Phillips’ claim that he felt blocked for the fact that he was not blocked under the court’s own definition.
Even taking it as opinion, so that it is immune from suit if all relevant facts are disclosed, the Post article fails. Because the Post did not disclose numerous facts, such as, Phillips marched into the middle of the group of students.
Dean – interesting, thanks for your take. I may re-read it with your interpretation in mind and see if it changes my understanding.
@RCDean
How do you prove “he said, she said”?
A couple of ways:
(1) Introduce evidence of credibility or lack thereof – if you can “impeach” the credibility of a witness, the jury has grounds to reject their version of events.
(2) Introduce extraneous evidence consistent or inconsistent with one person’s version of events. If someone claims they were raped on broken glass, but never went to the hospital, the jury has grounds to reject their version of events.
In a legal setting, “proof” doesn’t have the same meaning as it does in some other settings. It means producing evidence which convinces a jury (or a judge) beyond some threshold – preponderance, clear and convincing, or beyond a reasonable doubt. Nearly every case has some he said/she said in it, in the sense that opposing parties or witnesses are putting forth different versions of events. Settling on which version to believe, or some other version, is the everyday work of the courts.
@RCDean
Thanks for the explanation. I should have been more clear though. How does a journalist report on “he said/she said” in a way that absolves liability in a defamation case?
For example, I interview Joe and he tells me that he believed his egress was blocked by Jane. Then I interview Jane and she tells me that she was just standing there. Do I have to throw out the Joe quote? Considering that a news story is supposed to report what the participants had to say, can I include a quote from someone whose perspective may have been faulty? It all seems really messy to me as a layman.
HM:
You could avoid liability in that case by refraining from stating “Joe was blocked by Jane”, which is a statement of fact.
Even saying “Joe said he was blocked by Jane” will do the job. I don’t think you need to report Jane’s assertion to the contrary, or go to a third party, if you put it that way. OF course, as a reporter you would suck donkey balls if you had Jane’s denial and third party accounts and didn’t at least reference them, but whether you suck donkey balls in your job isn’t really the issue.
Where it gets sticky, and where I think the courts have screwed up, is what I read as a requirement that an opinion is immunized if all relevant facts are disclosed. So, if you report that Joe said he was blocked by Jane in an article that is otherwise defamatory (“Jane falsely imprisoned Joe”, which is defamation per se if false), you may now have to report all relevant facts (“Jane denied it, third parties said X, Y, and Z”), but I may be misunderstanding this part of the opinion. I’m doing this to take a break from flyspecking 40 page policy documents, after all.
It all seems really messy to me as a layman.
Because it is. This is what it looks like when the courts set out an extraordinary new standard (NYT v Sullivan) and then spend decades trying to make it work. Lawyers don’t typically try to resolve things by making them simpler and more clear, after all.
Ha! Fair enough.
somehow “the guy in the hat” is “not about Sandmann” per the judge.
are you shitting me? it shows Sandmann’s face. how is it “not about Sandmann”?
the WaPo writes the activist’s narrative and then editorializes that “the young men who confronted the [activist]” and somehow that’s “not about Sandmann” while showing a picture of Sandmann.
are you fucking shitting me?
could also be taken as a statement of fact
The kids are racist like Trump is racist. WaPo told me so.
he won’t win on appeal. the WaPo was just reporting the opinion of the old activist.
/judge
The unrest, on the right at least, about Section 230 is because it violates established expectations about the way governance (not The Government) should work. https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2019/05/algorithmic-governance-and-political-legitimacy/
At its best, the judiciary argues over weird arcana that no one cares about, and then deterministically steps from that through a series of logical steps to decide some case. At first blush, this sounds chaotic and useless. But it makes for a healthy debate. No one ever shot anyone over coma usage, or over weather an RV is a “home” given the understanding of “home” in the 1920’s. When the judiciary argues over this arcana, instead of “DAE think Abortion is GREAT!!” they avoid taking sides, or worse looking like they are taking sides, in the culture war. And then both sides can trust them.
But when the decision making process is opaque, and the judiciary acts as though they are taking sides, they stop being neutral decision makers. Even if they think they are neutral decision makers 1) they probably aren’t because human nature is immutable and 2) no one thinks they are anyway, which is what actually matters.
Algorithmic governance is opaque. Partly that’s hard to avoid. But it’s baked into the system. Its a feature designed by the various platforms. Recently, Gun History Jesus had a video describing this phenomena. He can’t understand what, if any, arcana and deterministic steps led to one video being demonetized and one not. This *could be* solved by putting the decision making process out in the open, but it isn’t.
So people get pissed off. They understand Section 230 to be a deal – you get safe harbor as long as you are a neutral publisher. They don’t perceive the publisher as being neutral, so they want the deal recognized as broken.
You should really read the article I linked to. Its very good.
That’s a good way to put it.
I’m assuming you meant “comma usage”, in which case I wouldn’t bet that Ted hasn’t shot someone over it.
I have had some frank exchanges of views over comma usage, but I haven’t actually shot anyone. Yet. If I missed, then I didn’t shoot anyone, right?
If you discharge a firearm and the bullet doesn’t hit anyone, then it’s really only a matter of opinion as to whether or not you were trying to shoot a specific person.
Additionally, if the bullet hits someone, it still a matter of opinion whether or not you were trying to hurt them… after all you could have been discharging the gun at a target to the side of them, and missed your intended target.
I arrive at this by extending to firearms the doctrine related to assaults with snowballs as advanced by my kids when they were elementary school age factoring in the judge’s ruling dismissing Sandman’s libel case against the Wash. Post.
Well, yeah? That’s like, just your opinion brah.
Well, comma usage was very critical to at least one recent case.
The “Let’s Eat Grandpa” case?
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client is a panda. He’s a simple panda. When he walks into a diner, he eats shoots and leaves. Its what pandas do. But the prosecution would have you believe that he walks into the diner, has dinner, and then opens fire on everyone there. That’s obviously not what is going on here.
Credible threat, good shoot.
that was a good one
Nope, it was related to a Maine labor law about overtime pay:
We know that the social media giants are culturally very much aligned with the “woke” left and many claim that they’re rigging the public discourse in favor of the left.
Whaaa? The sky is blue. It’s just a well known fact. Nobody could possibly object if a website or platform removed claims that he sky is actually green. Complaining about that makes no sense. Same with Nazis.
The sky is transparent, but diffractive, resulting in blue-spectrum sunlight being bent towards the surface during daytime.
Look at Bill Nye, here! Next he’ll be explaining why the ocean is blue!
Dissolved Smurfs.
Mmmmm….delicious.
Why is the ocean blue? Probably because of something you did.
The Ocean can be many different colors, see Smarty pants above^
It’s a good thing I’m an eracist.
You go around blowing up statues of Nathan Bedford Forrest?
Spoilers.
I’ve ironed out some of the plotholes in the story. First was why would Syd risk coming to the area when both the heroes and the eldrich hillbilly were active. If he arrived before, he’d have to face the eldrich hillbilly. If he waited until the eviction was completed, the legal owners would find the project he wants to harvest for parts, so he’s letting the heros distract the eldrich hillbilly while he sneaks in. Second was why would he end up in the fight if he’s just trying to avoid them both. Well, I figure he wanted to use the project’s own systems to open the maintenance access ports, as the machine is huge, only it begins executing the programming that it had been wired for and draws attention from everyone in the area.
fuck it, let’s go bowling.
I’m in!
Wrong band man.
There are lots of bands who like to bowl.
And we really need to include this.
That bowling ball, it’s my WIFE!
Forgive my Pollyannaish naivete here, but I’m genuinely trying to get to grips with this. Currently, if somebody hatespeeches someone on Twitter, Twitter has no liability. Twitter may do whatever it wants in terms of their own disciplinary policy, but there’s no legal liability on their part. Under the removal of Section 230 protection they now become a publisher, so if someone hatespeeches on someone else Twitter now has some liability, or at least has a legal responsibility to apply its own policies equally regardless of the identity of the people involved. Am I understanding that correctly?
Given that, is this a “Publish the Tweet, bigot!” situation? Or is this more like the IRS going to a strip club owner and saying, “Well, see, it says here that this is an abbey and therefore exempt, and yet, sir, it appears none of these ladies have taken vows. So pay up.”?
Lets change it from hatespeech to defame, because hatespeech doesn’t imply legal liability.
Under 230, If Alice defames Bob in a message on Platform Charlie, Alice is civilly liable and Bob can sue her for all she’s worth. Charlie is immune from liability.
Without 230, If Alice defames Bob in a message on Platform Charlie, Alice is civilly liable and Bob can sue her for all she’s worth. BUT ALSO: Charlie is now civilly liable and Bob can either sue Alice for her weekly paycheck OR he can sue Charlie OR he can sue both Alice and Charlie.
(technically, you can sue anyone for anything, but stupid stuff will get tossed real fast)
So, using your much better analogy, if Charlie publishes print magazines and Alice authors a feature article titled, “Bob is a Raging Alcoholic and Kicks Orphans” which is then published in an issue, Charlie is on the hook for libel, right? So 230 says that if Charlie leaves a stack of paper next to a typewriter and then comes back the next day and publishes whatever happens to be there without looking at it, he’s not liable for the content because he’s providing a service rather than acting as a publisher, in essence? I realize I’m torturing the analogy, but bear with me.
Now, let’s say Charlie says, “We’re still a service, but we’re going to take a look through these papers and if we see anything libelous, we’re not going to print it.” Does he now become a publisher and lose 230 protection? Or does that happen if he says, “…except for stuff about Bob, because he sucks.” Or only if he enacts certain standards and claims to apply them evenly but then demonstrates an anti-Bob bias? The reason I’m asking is because it seems a little like the inverse of the public accommodation rules. It seems like there’s no reason you can’t make a Twitter and freeze out viewpoints you don’t like without 230 so long as you also abide by rules against things that are already illegal in print, for instance.
Given that, I kind of don’t see the problem in considering Twitter et al publishers of content. After all, they’re acting as such by exercising editorial control. And I don’t see that undue harm has been caused in the telecom industry or to traditional media by the existence of laws against libel, slander, defamation, etc..
Paragraph 1 – right on.
No, he’s allowed to do that and maintain 230 status. Search above for the key word “good faith” in my previous comment for the exact language.
I think this is an open question that has not been ruled on by the courts and is not 100% clear from the language of 230.
Open question again.
Thing is, the text of the law is very forgiving to the platform providers. Which makes sense, since the original intended beneficiaries paid good money to get it passed. The “provider or user” pretty much determines what material they find offensive.
It’s somehow not cognitive dissonance to state that:
1) Twitter is not liable for their editorial actions, including bans
and
2) Trump is restricting freedom of speech for blocking people from posting on his Twitter feed
New Yorker- thought leader
The article is ostensibly about money. A “what is money, really?” sort of thing, but this brought me to a screeching halt, a couple of paragraphs in:
The instruments of trade and finance are inventions, in the same way that creations of art and discoveries of science are inventions—products of the human imagination.
Discoveries of science are products of the human imagination? Really?
How on God’s little green horse apple am I supposed to take this person seriously?
Maybe they’re talking about global warming.
Back when I taught a seminar on banking law, it was a discussion class, with one exception. I gave a lecture on the history of money (sadly, my notes are long gone or I would do a post here on it).
My bottom line was: Money is a consensual hallucination.
You really, really need to read The Craft series, if you haven’t. You’d really get a kick out of them.
That was one of the big revelations for me reading “Sapiens”. Money in any form, be it shells, paper, or even metals, is only worth something because everyone agrees that it’s worth something. It is a very powerful and useful hallucination, though.
agreed
When I’ve talked money with the kids, it usually comes down to the idea of we (pretty much everyone) have all agreed that US dollars have value. But if whatever reason that faith in that value is lost, dollars won’t be worth anything because in the end they are just high quality paper with neat printing.
Hey, there is some cool art work on them…
Money is a consensual hallucination.
“Smoke and mirrors” is the way we usually put it when I studied Econ back when I was a wee lad.
30 years ago, some really cutting edge theoretical computer scientists replaced The New Yorker with a neural network designed to produce meaningless bullshit that makes over educated stupid people feel smug.
This was the preliminary work done that laid down the foundation that was eventually used to design the BHObamaOS operating system.
The hardware requirements for BHOOS were too high. The new PrOSv3 runs on much cheaper hardware, and can be patched on the fly, though the command set is more limited, and it doesn’t allow for independant action. It is useful for filling in the background.
The pig says, “My wife is a slut.”
They are! Because the first step in the process of discovering a natural law is a human being guessing or imagining the law! You guess at a law and then see how well its predictions line up with observations. If the guess doesn’t match observation, then you know you haven’t discovered a law. On the other hand, if you have guessed well, your guess will not only produce accurate predictions for the observations you were considering when you came up with it, but in other areas.
The above is basically a summary of a great talk Feynman gave on the subject.
Cool! thanks,
This just sounds like the online version of public accommodations laws. What happened to ‘right to refuse service to anyone for any reason’?
The difference is that the businesses on whom the public accommodations laws are imposed don’t receive a grant of legal immunity from the government.
Indeed. Section 230 grants a privilege. The question is, under what circumstances should that privilege be granted?
I think you’re getting too caught up on the fact that there are words involved in the internet. IE things technically get published by words being written; but the publishing isn’t the product, the product is the facilitation, the platform itself.
The question is the selectivity of the facilitation. and if the provider is violating their own licensing/terms of service.
I just assume any platform who’s business model is selling advertising is going to have lawyers smart enough to give themselves every conceivable out and an editorial policy that favors statism over liberty. I grew up with TV and radio and I witnessed basic cable TV go from cutting edge to Bowdlerized in less than ten years so I expect Facebook, Twitter, et al to be even lamer.
Cakes have words on them too. Yet, woe unto the poor asshole who doesn’t want to put certain words on one.
PUBLISH THAT CAKE
Look out! Here comes another one.
The great irony of Law’s life is that his ideas were, from the modern perspective, largely correct. The ships that went abroad on behalf of his great company began to turn a profit. The auditor who went through the company’s books concluded that it was entirely solvent—which isn’t surprising, when you consider that the lands it owned in America now produce trillions of dollars in economic value.
Out of NOWHERE.
Because the first step in the process of discovering a natural law is a human being guessing or imagining the law! You guess at a law and then see how well its predictions line up with observations.
One does not “imagine” gravity into being. One may observe a natural phenomenon and postulate the regularity of its behavior. There is a difference.
The guy writing this claptrap in the New Yorker is no Feynman.
The difference being missed is that between the act of discovery and that which is discovered.
Gravity is not an act of consciousness, even when it is the content of the act.
The act of discovery is an act of consciousness regardless of its content.
Shirley, resident phenomenologist
Surely you can’t be serious.
*feels self loathing*
Shirley Knott. My degree of seriousness is wildly variable. 😉
Or do you find the distinction between intentional* act and intentional content problematic?
*intentionality, as in the “directedness to content” of consciousness, not as in intentional, the purposive
Nah. Just a big fan of Airplane.
Heh. Roger that
If you use an Airplane reference in the woods, and no one gets it….
Celebrating 30 Years of Weird Al Yankovic’s Weird Cult Classic, ‘UHF’
My wife really did not get that movie. I, however, loved it.
“I’m thinkin’ of something orange…”
I finally saw it recently after a recommendation here. I thought it was pretty funny, especially Kramer. But this is weird:
What the fuck does that mean?
my thought too – wut?
Stanley was a fucking capitalist. And an enthusiastic one.
Why do writers beclown themselves like this?
Because they’re stupid
It means the writer is a fucking commie and you should stop reading at that point. 🙂
I saw UHF in the theater, and I still love it.
“SUPPLIES!”
So it’s all about the
BenjaminsPentiums?UHF still kills me after 30 years. Stanley did NOT have them drink from the fire hose for no reason, though – you had to find the marble in the oatmeal for that.
Raoul’s Wild Kingdom…..”Today, we’re teaching poodles to fly!”
Town Talk With George…..”Sex with furniture – what do you think?”
And then there’s this…
Do yourself a favor and don’t read the comments. Fucking hell. It seems John is the sanest person left at Reason.
Bullshit…. They passed it at the behest of the ISPs, which are not platforms, just a delivery service.
The “platforms” didn’t exist yet, except as hosting providers that only provided the hardware for creating a website. It’s a significant difference from the monetized media platforms of today. It’s like comparing the the maker of the printing press to a newspaper company. Whether or 230 should still apply is a separate question, but the author is eliding the difference.
but the author is eliding the difference.
It’s ENB. Are you surprised?
Bullshit…. They passed it at the behest of the ISPs, which are not platforms, just a delivery service.
This is a bit off. While the Internet, and the world wide web that swallowed it, were available, there were still BBS and other non-Internet connected services which don’t resemble the modern ISP as we understand it. Hell, the first ISPs all offered connectivity to their own networks as a major feature, besides Internet access. It wasn’t until the late 1990s through the early 2000s that model of ISP as dumb pipe to the Internet took over, largely coincident with the rise of broadband and the dominance of the WWW (until then, it was considered the job of an ISP to provide access to things like Usenet and email).
In other words, the distinction between content platform and service provider was a lot less clear then. In a real sense, early ISPs were platforms. It is hard to compare to today, though, because the original model was much more transparently distributed. Of course, ISPs also had more control over content than they do today, much to the chagrin of net neutrality arguments about the way things were “meant” to be and “always” were.
Not too much longer to wait (August 9th) for the return of Rocko’s Modern Life.
I’m looking forward to it. I hope they get even more shit past the radar then when they were on the air. Invader ZIM is coming back the week after as well.
Nerds!!!
/looks upthread at the /. conversation.
I prefer geek.
And hillbillies prefer to be called sons of the soil, but it ain’t gonna happen.
Are you denying the Geek’s prefered Adjectives?
Great article Lazio, especially because that is my stance. 😉
As frustrating as the current situation is, I think we’re much better off without reform. Alternatives will eventually arise, services that go too far with censorship will fail. More regulation will probably just lead to further entrenchment by the big players, as it usually does.
Alternatives will eventually arise
Probably not. 2 companies own over 90% of the online advertising market across their various subsidiaries. You’re confusing products for customers. There is absolutely no incentive whatsoever for any of the tech giants to respect the privacy and speech of the users (products), unless that is what is requested and expected by the advertisers (customers). Hint: that is never what is going to be requested or expected of the advertisers. Not only that but they have full cooperation and buy-in from outside their industry to restrain competition. So even if you could somehow break off a billion or so users from platforms whose APIs are used across the entire web for things like login management, payments, and trust-based systems, you aren’t going to get any VC, you may get de-banked, and you definitely won’t be able to advertise on the aforementioned ad networks. The web is already a regulated utility, the only thing up for debate at this stage is whether it’s going to publicly or privately regulated. I don’t even give a fuck anymore.
The current model of everything being “free” but paid for with advertising is not set in stone. While Brave has not had tremendous success, it does represent an attempt to change that. More people will need to get on board with directly paying for content, though.