The Perfect Repeater
Resolved: The pre-64 Model 12 Winchester is the standard by which all pump shotguns must be judged. Now that that’s established, I’ll proceed to tell you about this magnificent shotgun and how it came to be the gold standard of pump shotguns.
Full disclosure: I’m not impartial. I own three Model 12s – a 1940 12-gauge field gun, a 1941 16-gauge field gun, and a 1942 12-gauge Black Diamond trap gun. The sequential years are nothing more than a happy coincidence.
John Browning
It should come as no surprise that the DaVinci of firearms was involved in the genesis of the Model 12, as he was with so many American sporting and martial arms. But his involvement in this case is limited to a precursor of the Model 12.
The story begins in 1887. In that year, Winchester determined to build and sell a repeating shotgun. They turned to John Browning, who had developed the company’s outstanding 1886 lever rifle the year before, along with the Winchester 1885 falling-block single-shot rifle.
Browning had already produced a successful lever-action rifle for Winchester, and while he advocated a pump-action for a shotgun, Winchester’s official position at that time was that they were a lever gun company, and by God they’d have a lever-action shotgun. Browning came through, producing the 1887 lever gun, the first mass-produced repeating shotgun by a major manufacturer.
But the 1887 lever gun was big, clunky, and it’s drop-block lever action required a long throw. It was offered in 10 and 12 gauge but was only strong enough for black-powder shells, at a time when higher-performance smokeless powder loads were just beginning to become available.
Sales were lackluster. Double guns still handled better than the heavy lever gun and offered much faster second shots and quick reloads. Browning politely reminded Winchester of his stated position on the pump-action for shotguns. Winchester finally agreed that the brilliant designer may have had a point.
The Model 93/97
In response, Browning designed the black-powder-only 1893 pump shotgun, which was quickly refined into the 12- and 16-gauge, smokeless-powder-capable Model 1897. The first variant of the ’97 offered in 1897 was a solid-frame 12 gauge, followed in 1898 by the takedown version in 12-gauge and the takedown 16 gauge in 1900.
Sales of the new gun were brisk, which probably earned Winchester’s management a “told you so” or two from John Browning. In fact, Browning liked the new shotgun enough that he retained one as his personal shotgun, using it on ranges and in the game fields until he died in 1926.
The 1897 had a few interesting features. The six-shot tubular magazine remains pretty typical for pump-guns made today, but the external hammer and lack of an additional safety probably wouldn’t fare well in today’s market – although I would opine, as I have repeatedly, that a gun with an external hammer doesn’t require an additional safety.
Another feature the 97 had was the lack of a trigger disconnect. This device disconnects the trigger when the action is cycled, thus requiring the trigger to be released and pressed again for follow-up shots. The 97, like most pump-guns designed in the early 20th century, was a “slam-fire” gun – one could hold the trigger down and cycle the action, firing a new round ever time the slide slammed home. This isn’t a terribly accurate way to fire a shotgun, but I will admit if can be great fun; when I was a young fellow, I used to experiment in this technique with my Dad’s old Stevens pump, which had the same capacity. I never learned to hit much that way but burned up a fair amount of shells until the Old Man saw me dumping magazines of cheap field loads into the dirt bank we used as a backstop and, fearing damage to his gun by the rough use, put a stop to my experimenting.
The ’97 was in production until 1957, a sixty-year run. During both World Wars, the U.S. Army and Marine Corps used 97s to good effect in combat, the old guns with their slam-fire ability, six-shot magazines, 18” barrels, heat shrouds and bayonet lugs making good “trench brooms” in Great War France as well as good last-ditch jungle weapons in such places as Guadalcanal and Bougainville in the Pacific during Great War Part Two.
Today Chinese manufacturer Norinco makes a copy of the 1897 Winchester, supposedly made exactly to original specs but, based on examples I’ve examined, certainly not to original standards. My estimation of these guns is that one might make a decent tent pole or boat anchor, but they are not stout enough to make a decent pry bar. If you’re looking for an external-hammer pump shotgun, skip the Chinese knockoffs and find an old Winchester.
In the grand scheme of things, however fine and successful a gun as the 97 was, was only the prequel to the Perfect Repeater.
Winchester’s T.C. Johnson
There are few cases in which another designer has taken one of John Browning’s designs and improved it, but in 1912, Winchester engineer Thomas Crossley (T.C.) Johnson pulled it off.
Starting with the 1897, Johnson retained the take-down action mechanism, the six-round tubular magazine and the slam-fire capacity. The changes were primarily to the receiver. Johnson designed an enclosed receiver with an internal hammer, with the magazine loading from the bottom of the receiver and spent shells ejected through a port on the right side of the receiver. The feed system was also redesigned; where the 97 had used a big, heavy lifter to not only feed new rounds into the chamber but to also lock the bolt closed, the new gun used a much lighter shell lifter and instead locked the bolt closed with a lug that locked solidly into the top of the receiver. The receiver itself was machined from a billet of forged steel, making for a gun of immense strength for the time, perfectly capable of handling the new smokeless powder ammo.
Thus, was born the final configuration of the pump-action shotgun, which form persists even today.
Perhaps because the Model 97 was already being produced in 12 and 16 gauge, the Model 1912, as it was then known, was initially introduced only in 20 gauge, with 12- and 16-gauge versions being introduced in late 1913. The 16-gauge guns were built on the 20-gauge frame, making them an ideal compromise between “thump” and handling; my own 16-gauge is light, fast, a joy to handle, but with standard 2 ¾” shells puts out an appreciably larger shot charge than a 20.
Winchester’s marketing department were quick to promote the new pump-gun, labeling it “The Perfect Repeater,” which to my estimation is a pretty accurate description. A variety of Model 12s were produced, including lightweight versions and “Heavy Duck” guns that fired the very first 3” 12-gauge shells. Trap and Skeet versions were also produced, as were the fancy Pigeon Grade guns, featuring engraving, silver and/or gold inlays, and AAA+ walnut stocks and fore ends.
Like the 97 before it, the Model 12 also went to war, in trench gun trim, serving alongside the 1897 Winchester as well as the Stevens 520A and the Ithaca 37 in both World Wars as well as Korea and Vietnam. The government also bought standard versions for marksmanship training; those guns were fitted with big, ugly Cutts Compensators. The Old Man, when he ran a skeet range on an Army airfield in Victorville, California in late 1945 and early 1946, ran a lot of rounds through the range’s Model 12s and the accompanying Remington 11as.
It was in the game fields, though, that the Model 12 really shone. The combination of the enclosed, forged and machined receiver, the take-down action and the magazine capacity made the Model 12 very popular among bird and small-game hunters. The gun was well-made, reliable, strong enough to handle heavy loads and tough enough to withstand bad weather, rain, damp, snow, you name it.
By the mid-20th century, though, the very success of the Model 12 had resulted in some competition. One notable pump-gun of mid-century, the Stevens 520/520A, also came from the mind of John Browning, but those guns were primarily aimed at the economy market and almost all were built in private-label trim for such outlets as Sears-Roebuck and Montgomery Wards. As such, they didn’t make many inroads into Winchester’s sales of Model 12s.
All that changed in 1950, with the introduction of the Remington 870, and a near-immortal pump-gun in its own right. But the 870, while also tough and reliable, was cheaper to produce and sold at a lower price than the Model 12. The 870 was a bargain for shooters, while the Model 12, with its forged, milled receiver and considerable hand-fitting, was becoming too expensive to produce. The introduction of more economical yet still reliable and tough pump-guns like the aluminum-framed Mossberg 500 furthered the trend; hand-fitted guns like the Model 12 were becoming too costly for most shooters.
In 1964, during the infamous Winchester reorganization, the company’s management decided that the Model 12 cost too much to build; the grand old gun was not a good gamble for the modern market. Production of the Model 12 ceased that year, although a few guns still made their way out of Winchester’s Custom Shop. Mikoru in Japan made a few guns on the Model 12 specifications bearing the U.S. Repeating Arms and Browning labels, but after 1964, mass production of the original Winchester Model 12 ended.
Today
If you’re looking to pick up an original pre-64 Model 12 today, there are plenty available, but you should be aware of a few precautionary notes:
- Early guns had short chambers. In the first few years, 12-gauge guns had 2 5/8” receivers, while 16-gauge models had 2 9/16” chambers. It can be harmful to gun and shooter to fire 2 ¾” shells in these guns.
- In the 1920s many Model 12s were produced with nickel steel barrels. These guns are all clearly marked on the barrel, “NICKEL STEEL,” and are still very fine guns; but be advised, if the finish is badly worn, these guns don’t reblue easily. There was a very specific process involved; back when Winchester was still Winchester, one could send nickel steel guns in for refinishing and the company would do a very fine job. The attempts I’ve seen since then, done by third parties, have had… well, mixed results.
- Both the 1897 and Model 12 Winchester shotguns have notoriously thin barrel walls. This will not be an issue unless your desire to have a gun cut for choke tubes. Most outfits simply won’t touch an old Model 12; Carlson, for example, will tell you to not even send the gun in for evaluation. I have had two Model 12s cut for tubes by Briley, the only outfit I’m aware of that will touch this job; the tubes provided are frighteningly thin. I bet I could crush one flat between thumb and forefinger, although I won’t try; I have fired quite a few rounds through both 12 and 16 with these tubes, however, with no issues whatsoever.
The market in pump shotguns today is an embarrassment of riches. But you have to wonder, every time a gun company engineer comes up with a new pump-gun design, has to ask himself, somewhere in the deep recesses of his mind, “How will this compare to the Model 12?”
For longevity, for fit and finish, for reliability, for flawless function, and, yes, for beauty, the Model 12 Winchester remains The Perfect Repeater – the gold standard, the gun by which all other pump shotguns are measured. I don’t see that fact changing any time soon.
First!
It’s not links, no first for you!
Do you even Glib?
Bravo! I learn more every day, thanks Animal
And here I woke up thinking it was a Sunday, but then get this present. Thank you for your labor Animal!
This is heresy, I’m sure, but I’m a semi-auto guy when it comes to shotguns – Remington 1100 is my jam. When I buy a home-defense shotgun, it will be a semi-auto for this reason:
In a self-defense situation, I trust the semi-auto to cycle more than I trust myself not to eff up the pump action.
I also like the way my 1100s stay on target as I shoot. I suspect if Pater Dean had Model 12s rathe than 1100s, I would prefer pump action shotguns to semi-autos.
I hunted a lot with my 870 and never had an issue. We were in the mud and swamp all the time, but the pump guns never had a problem.
I also like the way my 1100s stay on target as I shoot.
I can see this. My doubles always surprised me as much as they did the ducks!
I suspect its mostly because I grew up on semis. I also wonder if the stress of actually shooting someone in self-defense would throw me off in cycling. There’s no telling how many thousands of rounds have been through our 1100s, with one (1) failure to cycle, and that was because I hadn’t put it back together quite right after a take-down cleaning.
Once again on this subject, the best gun to have is the one you are comfortable with. With your 1100s you would deal with a failure to cycle by reflex. That gun is the one. you have put thousands of rounds through. That is the one that responds to you and you to it.
Also, with a shotgun it is…a freakin’ shotgun. Lots of power and even if you are off a bit you still get a hit. You are unlikely to need more than one shot.
I always ….ummm… KEPT (something something tragic boating accident) a shell in the chamber of my home defense pumper, but I always like to imagine the burglar’s reaction when hearing that pumpin’ action in the dark.
Or just looking down the bore. It looks like a goddamn cannon!
Oh, wait – we’re doing phrasing, aren’t we?
Phrasing!
One thing that grinds my gears in movies is the way people always pump their shotgun just before taking a shot, even though there is no fucking way you get that far into the situation without chambering a shell. I keep expecting to see a shell fly through the air.
It’s like racking the slide in a pistol. Rack it before you point it at someone.
If I’m going through my house with a gun in my hand, I am confirming there is a round chambered as soon as I pick it up. The home defense guns are always in either condition 1 or 2.
John Wick being a notable exception, I should point out.
Keanu training for John Wick
I had to go back and check whether Bourne was guilty of that sin, but it’s not a pump.
So wouldn’t hear anything with their ears ringing? Assuming they weren’t already speeding to their interview with St Peter.
Some folk need to be told twice.
I kept *wink wink* my chamber empty. If racking the pump scares them away, all the better. I don’t want to shoot anybody unless I have to. If the sound doesnt scare them off, it’s yet another point on the “my family’s lives are in danger” side.
Prior to my aquatic misfortune, I had a home defense setup quite similar to this. I hadn’t gotten a bayonet, but the lug was there for it.
No no, you’re supposed to fire two blasts from a double-barrel shotgun out on the balcony (ya know, that balcony that everyone has).
Just more footage that should be trotted out if that idiot runs for president.
Smart. My Mossy 500 needs a brother. I’ve been looking at the TAC-13 for similar reasons.
Also, because shotgun.
I find the TAC 13 intriguing, but would have to shoot it before I actually sprung for it.
Palmetto has been advertising the Mossberg shockwave recently. Cheap.
Get it in 20ga. Your hands will thank you.
I have the Shockwave with the banana clip (10 rounds). I laughed when I took it to the range for a little break-in because… well… 10 bleeping rounds, man! I took a friend to the range – and he’s no girly-man – but after unloading the full mag of slugs he was rubbing his shoulder.
A la Dave Chappelle, I load mine alternating buck then slug.
I thought he did a pretty good explanation of the rationale there. First shot is bird shot, and that’ll light someone up and let them know you’re serious. If they don’t leave, buck. Now his friend’s still there; one round of bird to give him a chance to leave, then buck the rest of the way.
Yeah, it was obvious to me (notwithstanding the setup and joke) that Dave owns guns. I like his rationale; it mirrors my own, but I “upped” the lethality a bit because – well, if I had to grab the shotgun… then it’s clearly killin’ time. So, it’s buck to start with a slug behind it.
I think realistically I would start with the pistol (Sig P320/.40) because (1) it’s closer and (2) it has a light and laser on the rail.
I put a pistol grip on my Mossberg 500 12ga and fired one round. Then I took the grip off the gun and threw it in the trash.
I believe Mas Ayoob recommends a semi-auto 20 gauge for home self-defense, because it’s easier to control and there is no need to worry about cycling.
I’m an 1100 guy as well, though I haven’t shot mine in years (since the boat accident). I don’t hunt small critters any more, though Animal said the old timers are still tearing up the trap ranges so there is still hope.
Thanks, Animal, for reminding me. I learned to shoot a shotgun with my Dad’s 97, it was more than a skinny 9-10 year old could handle but my Dad held the butt ’cause the stock was too long for a kid Fourscore. I really like your articles, takes me back to younger days. Times were good.
My youngest grand daughter, 23, is here this week end and was learning on a Marlin 336 but not a word to Suthen. After deer season she will be the new owner, its time to make some transitions.
Honey Harvest in 2 weeks. Next Saturday we’ll make the final pull on the honey, Sunday after the bees have quieted down we’ll move them to my partner’s property. In spite of the bear problem early on it looks to be a very good harvest, maybe not record breaking but good. If there are any folks that want to come that haven’t got the word there’s still time to get directions. latvia 2112 at the yahoo. thing
Tundra/Pope/Leap know the way and others as well. May be a Mystery Guest, too
My youngest grand daughter, 23, is here this week end and was learning on a Marlin 336 but not a word to Suthen. After deer season she will be the new owner, its time to make some transitions.
Are you looking to adopt any more grandkids?
Funny you mention that gun. The 1100 is a damn fine gun and has been around a while; I was selling them back in my Woolco days in the late Seventies. As I’ve always understood it, the 1100 cut into the market for the more expensive Browning Auto-5 in the same way the 870 helped do in the Model 12.
There’s probably another article in that.
My Benelli SBE is recoil rather than gas. If I shoot it with a light load without the butt firmly against my shoulder, it won’t cycle. Not sure if this is an issue with gas operated semis (I expect not) but it’s something to think about when using a semi for self defense where you may be shooting from the hip.
Thanks, Animal. A very interesting history lesson!
This cracked me up:
Dad put a stop to quite a few of my ill-advised experiments. He probably prevented bodily injury on a few occasions.
#metoo
(and that was just with dart guns)
Thanks Animal. My next gun purchase (I mean if i were so inclined but I am convinced now guns are evil) will be a shotgun. I have looked at the chink knockoffs at the gun shows and they are cheap as chips. Something I am drawn to. It looks like they have many choices of 870 knock offs but I have not seen one with a hammer. But then again I am not as up on this stuff as you gun freaks.
My only shotgun at present is an 870 with a rifle barrel an a regular smooth bore.
Nothing fancy, but does the job reliabiy.
So now radio news is reporting Odessa shooter recently failed a background check and the gun he used was purchased without one. If true, that should be the final nail in the coffin of universal background checks I imagine.
My question is, if the guy has a criminal record of only misdemeanor trespassing why is he failing background checks? I think the cops knew more about this guy than they are letting on. Which is usually the case with these nut jobs.
Maybe he has a sealed juvie record?
As long as we get common sense cleaver control, we’ll be fine.
Cleaver Control
Nobody could ever control Jerry Mathers, could they?
Beaver control is a different thing.
I’ll give you my beaver when you pry it from my… oh, never mind.
Someone should do something
https://www.foxnews.com/us/people-killed-boat-fire-california-santa-cruz-island
No common sense fire control.
I’ve purposely been avoiding the news so I don’t really know anything about this guy, but that does seem strange. I would assume if that’s all he’s got he’d be good to pass a check. The only thing I can imagine is that maybe he tried to use a fake or stolen ID for the check, or something like that. The problem with “universal” background checks as they’re implemented in places that have them, i.e. requiring private sales to be conducted through an FFL and having the transfer registered, is that they depend on both parties voluntarily complying. Firearms are so alien to the people clamoring for universal background checks that they don’t think of them as material items that can be bought, sold, given, traded, or stolen. If you swap “gun” or “firearm” with “pair of shoes” or “fishing rod” in any of these conversations it quickly becomes apparent how ridiculous the idea of relying on a background check to prevent someone from being shot really is.
Ya, a lot of horse trading of guns goes on around these parts. My hog dealer wanted to trade me the hog for my Berreta.
All mass shooters used marijuana – we should be less worried about the guns and more worried about the weeds.
I’m going to have to get my model 12 out of the safe and look it over after this article. I know it was made in 1920 based on the serial number, but little else about it. It’s in immaculate shape though…
I have George Madis’s The Winchester Book, if it’s details you’re looking for. Not as much specific info as his book on Model 12s but still pretty informative.
I have an old Mossburg I paid $75 for with no bottom plate. Works like a charm. Also have a nice Tactical 870 with some nice accessories. I like the safety better on the 870 just because I’m so used to that style on a long gun. If I ever buy another shotgun would be Benelli M3 which can switch between pump and auto or an M4 which is auto and supposedly cycles anything you want to put through it.
Mark Stey’s musings on Labor Day:
I think this is also related to the uptick in school shootings.
Idle hands, especially those of young men, can be dangerous things.
But, everyone can just be artists.
#learntocode
I still haven’t figured out why telling someone to develop a marketable skill is a bad thing.
It’s probably the “market” thing – “I should be able to earn a good living doing whatever I want without evul markutz deciding whether anyone would actually be willing to shell out their own money for my output!”
I’m talking about its use by the Nu-Right to taunt journalists deemed unsympathetic to the ‘plight’ of the rural working class vis-à-vis globalization. Prior to the Great Populist Revival, these very same people would taunt baristas with humanities degrees in the same manner, but when it was applied to Uncle Billy-Bob, they began to squeal like stuck pigs.
Turnabout is fair play, I say.
You get to ignore that part if you’re owning the libs.
I thought the point is that it was not very helpful advice for laid off coal miners, etc., so when journalists are on the chopping block it’s given back as snark.
…and journalists are offended by the snark because they, as Higher Beings, should exist on a plane above such mundane considerations as supply and demand.
I don’t think it’s good advice for journalists, either. There are skill sets and interests and practical knowledge that is likely missing when you’ve only ever done one thing all of your professional life, whether it’s whatever coal miners actually do underground, or eating paste like journalists.
“Under extraordinary circumstances, for urgent cases, the State should set aside some resources to assist certain unfortunate people, to help them adjust to changing conditions”
–Bastiat
Candlemakers are capable of going to community college to learn Python as well.
Well, candle-makers are well-known for their robust problem-solving and lateral thinking, so that’s hardly fair.
I have a really smart friend, well-traveled, who says that his standard for judging the criminality of any country, or even any local environment, is to make note of the numbers/percentage of idle young man just “hanging around” on the street. He says, “That is all you need to know about what the level of crime will be.” I haven’t yet found a counter-example in person (and I don’t trust bullshit stats on these kinds of things).
Anyone here visited China or India lately? I understand they both have chick shortages. And we all know how dangerous the chick shortage here at Glibs has been.
I was regularly in China from November 2016 through October 2018. I’ve read a good bit about the “chick shortage” in China, because of the One Child fiasco, and I’ve seen scholarly papers suggesting that it may even be “too late,” but I didn’t see that when I was there. So, I don’t know.
I wonder if the shortage is more apparent in rural than in urban areas. Were you mainly in large cities?
I thought the enforcement of one child policy was less strict in rural areas? Also where urban cousins would pass off their kid rather than abort them.
And orphanages. One of my cousins was adopted from China.
Yes, I was in large cities primarily, but some notable trips to waaaaayyyyyyy up north, out in the sticks (on the . border where China meets Russia at a frozen river). I hadn’t thought about it then because I was traveling with a friend, his wife and daughter, and his parents (and lao wai along for the ride) but yes, women more scarce way out of the way. No doubt.
Doesn’t China provide free sex change ops? It’s a socialist paradise isn’t it?
Speaking of China, how long until we get another Tiananmen Square?
Chicoms dialing up the rehetoric
I’m a little surprised at this point that our lefttards are not in the streets protesting, in support of Xi and China.
Well, a little “crowd control” would give all those extra boys on the mainland something to do…
There’s an idea that you see criminal activity, particularly violent crime and property crime, in communities that are socially disaffected, e.g. housing projects in the inner city, Appalachia, or the Palestinian territories. The latter in particular is an interesting case because you see young men with prospects and education who nevertheless volunteer for suicide bombing. The idea is that when you have communities where people essentially believe that the rules are stacked against them, or that the “social contract” has been broken by the society of which they’re ostensibly a part, people stop espousing the kind of morals and values that keep young men from robbing, murdering, etc. If you steal something from a store, who cares? The rules aren’t fair, so why play by them?
I read Steyn’s essay and pondered just what annoyed me about it. After a while, I realized what stuck in my craw was the implication that this culture of dependency was foisted upon the hoi polloi by (*gasp, horror, shock*) arrogant and effete ‘coastal elites’ and wasn’t, in actuality, a result of ‘flyover’ farmers and labor unions voting themselves unfettered access to the Federal cookie jar of subsidies and ‘entitlements’ since the early 19th century.
I mean, I’ve never heard of a California Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party, but Minnesota has been enthralled with sending venal pieces of shit to Washington for centuries.
A few years ago I asked my father if the commies had ever been this brazen before.
“Yes. Midwest farmers since the early 19th century. In many ways they were worse than today.”
What we are dealing with is just human nature. This shit has always been around. The bulk of the herd needs someone to tell them what to do and assure them everything will be alright because they will be taken care of. I am sure that goes back to our ancestor species as far as herd behavior.
It might be interesting to see how many other socially dependent species exhibit the same behavior.
If you haven’t already, I recommend you read this book.
It took me a second to get the picture on that book. For a bit, I thought it was a sickle, and scratching my head.
Great. I can’t unsee that now.
Eugene V. Debs, etc.
Unfortunately for me, my club does not have a “clay shooting for complete novices” division, so I’ll have to teach myself. I bought this and this and as soon as I’m in the mood for something other than handgunning, I’ll see how it goes.
Nice. Something I’ve never done but have always wanted to. Public ranges here have dedicated fields to go do it. There is also a shooting center nearby that has all the equipment. Seems like it would be fun. I really want to start doing some long range shooting. This is on my list for next year’s bonus to go on my Sig 716 .308. Cost more than the gun. Lol.
https://www.usoptics.com/product/b-10/
From what I can tell, the precision shooters always spend more on the optics than the rifle.
It’s about 2:1 on cost.
I just got a cheap optic in the mail 10 minutes ago and mounted it 5 min ago:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0153VR2B0/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I put it on my 10/22 in the hopes of passing my club’s 200yd qualifier with it. Just to piss them off.
I would be getting it sighted in right now but black clouds have just rolled over me. Damn you Dorian!
Nice. It has been your adventures into competition that got me thinking about it too. We have a super duper (or so they say) trap range just down the road from me. I have never shot clays at a range but only chucking them out with friends. Super fun and I need a hobby.
My entire experience was five games of trap shot back in 1995. I absolutely loved it but couldn’t sleep that night because my shoulder was hamburger.
Is that why you got the CZ? Surely that mechanism would take much of the recoil energy. Maybe?
Supposedly it doesn’t bleed off as much as a gas system would, but really the problem that caused me so much grief was just popping off 125 rounds of 12ga in under 2 hours.
As for the CZ specifically, a) it is really cheap, especially compared to other semi-autos and b) I lurve my CZ Shadow 2 so much that I am predisposed to try that brand’s other offerings.
And the LGS that is the CZ dealer has a pair of shop dogs to play with.
Ya, 125 rds and I probably couldn’t lift a fork.
Thanks, Animal!
I’ve always wondered why 16ga is not more popular. Easier for a small-framed person to handle.
I had a Rem 1100 in 20ga that I bought from a buddy who had money troubles. Sold it back to him when he got back on his feet. Maybe I should see if he wants to let it go, again.
Mrs. A and I each have two sixteens; her, a Citori White Lightning and a Ithaca 37, me, a Browning Auto-5 Sweet Sixteen and a Model 12. I think it’s a vastly underestimated shotgun round.
Heh, looks like I just re-bought the 1100.
So now radio news is reporting Odessa shooter recently failed a background check and the gun he used was purchased without one. If true, that should be the final nail in the coffin of universal background checks I imagine.
not sure if serious
Me or the radio story?
He bought the gun illegally so….universal background check laws will do what now?
My radio news is leaving that tidbit out. I have heard two news blurbs on it now and they imply, at least to my ears, is it was just another person to person sale but no back ground check like is done 10’s of thousands of times a day in the USA but maybe that is just my mind reading into it. Nobody has said, “illegal sale” which to me implies stolen weapons or a purchase by someone prohibited from owning as in felons. Which I am not sure I agree with but that is another matter.
I have sold to individuals before. If it was someone I didn’t know well I always used a dealer to facilitate the sale. I gladly paid the 20 bucks for the dealer to run the background check.
You are ahead of the times because that is what they want and is what I am guessing is coming. I have never bought a gun from anyone other than family, friends or a licensed dealer but there are advertised PtoP for sale guns in the local classified paper. I am guessing those don’t go through a dealer and I am not saying they should. Have you ever had anyone back out of a sale after telling them you would do it at a dealer?
I just ordered a Remington 11-87 Sportsman Compact. Should be able to pick it up in a couple of hours.
That’s on my wish list.
Any ammo recommendations?
Looks like SG Ammo has Remington #3 buck shot, Winchester #3 buck shot, SB Favorit #2 buck shot, and Spartan #1 buck shot.
I shoot two: 3″ Remington #4 buck (41 pellets) and Winchester 3″ 00 buck (15 pellets). I also have some 000 around here somewhere, maybe 100 rounds of it but I forget the pellet count. These are all magnum hunting loads and they are hotter than shit. They should be able to take deer out to 100 yards with the right choke.
At the ranges you would be shooting indoors for self defense there really isn’t a 12 gauge round that is not sufficient. Trap loads with 7-1/2 shot would easily do the trick.
What are you hunting with 000? Ostrich?
Man.
We (friends and I) had a course set up and would engage in some competition. The targets were 1/2″ and 3/4″ steel plates, some bowling pins, and of course paper on 3/4″ plywood. Ranges from 5 to 25 yards. We had a lot of fun. It takes a pretty good punch to knock down 3/4″thick, 12×18″ steel plates. Of course the gun was punching back.
If I ran that course 4x in a day I spent the next day with an ice pack on my shoulder.
Picked up the shotgun.
Life is good today.
OT: I just cracked open the 3rd egg in a row from this dozen with twins in it. That’s gotta be a sign of some impending doom, right?
Dammit! I knew I shouldn’t have skipped that day (though it wasn’t on the test).
Either that or go to Atlantic City RIGHT NOW!
A sign of impending nutritional awesomeness anyway.
Upcoming hen menopause.
Someone must be making decent copies, since that is the shotgun model required for “Wild Bunch” shooting.
Salma
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/salma-hayek-bikini-body-beach-turning-53
Wood.
Speaking of gold standards. She and Liz are destroying the curve.
Gracias!
She was absolutely the best part of Desperado
Ugh. The Remington website sucks. Who put that together? They clearly outsmarted themselves…and me too. Finding what you want to see there is a bit difficult.
Another fantastic article, thanks Animal. The Mossberg 500 has always been my pal. Silly tacticool .12 gauge with M16 style full buttock with the dropdown pistol grip, 8 round magazine, and full-length ghost ringed barrel was always my under-the-bed home defense go-to. The Mariner line-thrower, with Blaze Orange hardware was an impulse purchase 20 something years ago (I’ve only shot it once). I picked up a .12 gauge Shockwave and lived it but traded it in for the .20 gauge as soon as that hit the market. I find the smaller shell much more pleasant as I age. I was looking for a wrist brace for it when the tragic catamaran accident in Lawn Guyland Sound sent every last one of them to Davey Jones’ Locker.
This is a very nice bit of history, thanks Animal!
I want more guns.
I have been warning you knuckleheads for well over 10 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caMHdcRNEkc
Well for anyone interested – 10% off at fenixammo.com –
Assume some folks here might like that. I’m still waiting for my first ammo order from them, so I can’t comment yet.
Just FYI, targetsportsusa.com seems to be a bit cheaper as far as mail-order ammo goes.
it’s a specific brand though – haven’t seen their ammo anywhere else yet.
Right, it was the training ammo? If you’re just looking for stuff to practice with, that site is cheaper. If you are looking for TPJ cleaner-powder, lighter loads, these guys also exist https://www.minutemanmunitions.com/training-9mm-blue-coat-115gr/ at $0.17/round. Final price will depend on shipping. Target Sports USA is free shipping with either a case quantity or “prime” membership (which also gets you an extra discount)
Well, I believe that most of the indoor ranges around me don’t let you use steel jacketed (ferrous) ammo (ie. Wolf, etc).
They don’t let you use steel cored, yes. Some of that will damage the backstop
Steel cased ammo isn’t a problem AFAIK, since the case doesn’t go downrange.
At least your indoor ranges don’t require you to buy the ammo at the range like mine does.
I have to buy rifle ammo if I want to shoot indoors, but I’m good with pistol stuff if they inspect it. Slugs only for the shotguns indoors – seems fairly common. Haven’t shot those before, but I’ll try it out for the hell of it.
I appreciate the links though and I will look at them in the future when I need to get a bit more bulk of one type for some of the classes I hope to take.
BTW – when I hit up colonial shooting academy next Saturday, I’m hoping to rent their Remington 870 as well. I guess my big question is – when it comes to ARs and shotguns…etc – how much variation is there in terms of the shooting experience? My default for an intro/first shotgun is either going to be an 870 or a Mossberg 500 series (some familiarity from my active Navy duty). Of course…when I look online, I’m not sure what kind of barrel, etc settings I’m looking for – if I just want a default, quality, affordable 12 Ga. – home defense but the option for skeet/trap shooting in the short term.
Similarly, I was thinking about building my first AR-15, but now I’m wondering if I wouldn’t be better off just buying the first one – something like a Bushmaster, etc – I *want* the default iron sights just because I’m most familiar with them from my army/navy time – even though I expect to eventually buy an optic (never got to use one when I was active due to my MOS/job/billet/etc). A lot of the cheaper options just don’t include the sights, etc. The Bushmaster XM-15 for approx $680 (at classicfirearms.com) – seems like a good deal, but I’m definitely open to any suggestions from folks here.
I mean…alternatively I guess a review like this looks like a good way to spend <$450 (https://www.officer.com/tactical/firearm-accessories/article/10977976/delton-sport-ar-style-rifle-review) – but how often do you guys get buyers remorse when it comes to guns?
And I guess this is the next level option – good reviews too – https://www.classicfirearms.com/smith-and-wesson-mp15-spt2-556-nato-30rd-black-10202/
Again…I expect/hope to buy more in the future, but I just want to get one of each in the short term before I lose my interest/motivation again due to schedules – esp while I’m living in VA.
That M&P is nice..
Yeah…leaning towards it, but I need to work out the FFL thing with my range shop (might wait till I get over there on Sat).
Guns can always be resold or traded, at least until that gets outlawed. And they hold their value vastly better than automobiles.
“Guns can always be resold or traded”
Just make sure you background check yourself. /triggers red flag
I recently bought this AR pistol and really like it.I paid about 600 but have seen them on sale for 550. My only critique is that you can’t mount anything to the first slot in front at the bottom because the gas block is in the way but that’s a nit. Plenty of slots available.
https://ruger.com/products/ar556Pistol/models.html
Interesting – the one I’ve been interested in for years is the Kel-tec PLR-16. Saw one used when I picked up my sig – maybe in the future.
https://www.keltecweapons.com/firearms/pistols/plr16/
Well one thing to keep in mind is that one huge advantage of a rifle over a pistol is the permanent wound channel created starting around 2200 fps which for the most part you need a rifle lenght barrel to achieve. Under 2200 the tissues elasticity allows it to expand and contract. I’m not sure you’ll get that 2200 out of barrel that short especially with 62gr and up. Something to think about.
Saw the lucky gunner vid where they interviewed Federal ammo folks about the ballistic gel demo – the 2200 fps makes sense – but is your 10.5″ that much different than a 9″ barrel?
Listed at 2600 fps, tested at 2400 fps apparently – https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/kel-tec-plr-16-5-56-223-pistol-range-report/
My 2 cents. 870 and 500 are both great shotguns and both have a multitude of accessories available. Something like this with a Vang Comp side saddle is a nice defense gun. The tactical choke is nice but does add a little to the length.
https://www.remington.com/shotguns/tactical/model-870-express-tactical
As far as AR’s go. I have the old Colt A2 with the carry handle and the old handguards and A2 front sight.. I would not go that route if buying today. A flat top is going to provide more options for optics. Full length picatinny on top with foldable buis and a quad rail with picitinny or m-lok on the fore grip. Gives you more options for a light and switcg, bi-pod or handgrip, laser, bottle opener, etc. Free floating hand guard is nice. I’d keep the barrel short unless you want to do strictly target shooting.
Thanks for the tips. It looks like most of the ones I like with the iron sights still have normal picatinny rails too – will probably replace the hand guards either way, but a good starting point just for familiarity and comfort zone.
BTW – any suggestions re: barrel length variability on a shotgun? Am I looking for 16″ or longer?
Well 18″ is going to be the shortest your going to get non-NAF in the 870 (18) or 500 (18.5). If you want to use for home-defense that’s what you’ll want to go with because going to a 24″ is going to be unweildy in a house. You can always buy whatever barrel you want for any purpose later. They swap out very easily.
Appreciate the clarification – I haven’t done a lot of research…this is the kind of thing I prefer to talk to people about directly.
Nice overview of all the AR optional configurations. The low-profile gas block is what I was referring to so you have more front site options.
https://www.pewpewtactical.com/best-ar-15/
Also,If you like carry handle you can buy ones that attach to the flat top.
I have a Winchester 120 dressed up in some Boyds laminate furniture.
Reading the Sept issue of American Rifleman. Meadows is trying to do damage control for Wayne lapierre and the NRA by tying the two together closely. In a different era, I’d almost buy it but the number of (better respected by me) people that have thrown their weight behind opposition to LaPierre is far more convincing.
Wayne LaPierre has an incredible history of saying stupid shit. If it’s not stupid, it will certainly be twisted out of context by Lefties in order to appear so. He’s not very good at what he does.
They need to just give him a nice retirement party, a big fat pension, and send him on his way so that someone more competent can do the job.
He’s incompetent and from what I’ve seen and read he’s more likely than not actively corrupt and crooked.
Just filled up our SUV with gas and when I went to hang up the pump I just happened to glance at the digital readout on the pump. $103.21. WTF!? That was regular unleaded at 2.69 a gallon. Then I saw the gallon readout, 28.9 gallons. Umm, interesting, since it only has a 16.4 gallon tank. Logged into my bank account, $28.61. It was more than a quarter half full already. They better fix that shit before they give someone a fucking heart attack.
I must have been really drunk last night because the wife was putting away socks this morning and asked me what are all of those bullets? I was like ummm, what bullets? There was an entire box of 22 ammo spilled out in my sock drawer. What the hell, lol? *red flags self*
You were drunk. Lol.
Oh shit, man I am sooo not going to read my posts from yesterday.
You were fine:)
At least until he took his clothes off and started dancing on the table.
Doesn’t explain the sock drawer.
I’d suspect that I was going to shoot some squirrels and then thought better of it, since doing that in the city might get you into trouble, I prefer to use one of my pellet guns for that since they don’t make much noise. Other than that, no idea.
Should we tell him about the wedding or let him be surprised when the bride shows up at his house?
Hope you didn’t forget about the $500 you borrowed.
True story, I once $1000 dollars from … something, seriously. I never found it. I guess I’m really good at hiding stuff.
And that he promised to change his handle.
/what didn’t happen
Naa Hyperion he’s got you on that one. I remember you saying you were changing your name to The Hyperion. But I was drunk too.
Sounds truthy to me, and I’ve been stone cold sober the whole time, dammit.
I should probably not read mine from yesterday too.
Yeah – sharing your darkest fantasies with the gang was a bit much tbh
The only thing I can remember… I think it was JB, was the comment about Hayek not getting a burqua. It could actually start a cult or something, or at least a hashtag #NoBurqua4Hayek.
Fuck
Faced With Criticism, Trump Administration Reverses Abrupt End to Humanitarian Relief
Weak
So, single payer for illegals. I do note that the article uses the word ‘immigrants’, not illegals but since the people we are talking about are facing deportation I assume they are illegals or lied their way in to get free medical care.
The 5 Coolest Working-Class Heroes in Science Fiction
smdh
good lord. A check list of left wing causes. The heroes are all battling the pet causes that the left keeps telling the working class makes them deplorable.
Pinko universe is a very strange place.
I didn’t think it was possible to make me NOT look forward to season 4 but leave it to gizmodo.
“In fact, one of the best things about science fiction is how it’s used to comment on social and political issues in our own lives”
I think they misspelled “worst things.”
Driver fatally mows down cyclist he suspected was car thief
The war on cyclists has begun.
The cyclist managed to slash an unnamed witness with a screwdriver before he died, cops told The Post.
Huh.
Huh. Why is there never a bike handy when I’m going from car to car looking for one to break into.
Jeffrey Epstein’s model-scouting pal has ‘disappeared without a trace’
My guess: he’s at the Clintons.
Shouldn’t that headline be prefaced with ‘Unexpected development:’ ?
Andrew Schulz Makes Robin Hood Moves Giving a Glimpse at What The Future of Comedy Looks Like
He’s a monster.
“Jokes…bring us together.”
Why do you think they are trying so hard to shut comedy down?
Much brave. So hero.
After lots of controversy, Boston’s “straight pride” parade took place in downtown Boston Saturday and, as expected, the counterprotesters outnumbered those participating in the parade.
——–
Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez was among the many who mocked the event Saturday, writing on Twitter that there really seemed to be a lack of women in the event. “For men who are allegedly so ‘proud’ of being straight, they seem to show real incompetence at attracting women to their event,” Ocasio-Cortez wrote on Twitter. “Seems more like a ‘I-Struggle-With-Masculinity’ parade to me.” She later called on followers who wanted to show “support to the local LGBTQ community impacted by Boston’s white supremacist parade” to contribute to a bail fund to help “activists who put themselves on the line protecting the Boston community.”
Gulag Barbie will save us from the patriarchy.
Follow that laser pointer.
“white supremacist parade”
Citation needed.
Citations are racist.
No, racists drive Pintos.
My dad drove a pinto wagon for years.
Drove a Pinto and raised a Glibertarian. Q.E.D.
There probably is something to being stuck stuck in the back seat with those stupid flipper windows. I can still recall that awful plastic smell and lack of fresh air.
It it’s defense, the Pinto has killed Nazis
My dad did too.
I had a 1972 Pinto and loved it. It was the first “modern car” that I had owned (previously owned a 64 Chevy Bel-Air, a 64 VW Beetle and a 64 Chevy pickup). It had the smaller engine (1.6) and I could squeak out 40MPG on the highway.
I don’t get where the white supremacy comes in. What the fuck are they talking about?
Also, good reminder that no matter how cutesy you think she is, she really is a nasty piece of work.
She being AOC
“For men who are allegedly so ‘proud’ of being straight, they seem to show real incompetence at attracting women to their event,”
That’s some Trumpian trolling right there.
“I guess women aren’t interested in free speech.”
One way to support the local LGBTQ community impacted by Boston’s white supremacist parade?
Contribute to the Bail Fund for the activists who put themselves on the line protecting the Boston community
AOC, go fuck yourself.
White supremacist parade? What, people of color can’t be straight? And, honestly it seems like AOC and her friends are the ones who struggle with masculinity.
Animal seems to have overlooked the obligatory musical selection.
I got this book for my Dad years ago for Father’s Day, and he has told me numerous times how much he enjoyed it and re-read it.
John Browning.
https://www.amazon.com/John-M-Browning-American-Gunmaker/dp/B0013RB8HS/ref=pd_aw_sim_14_1/132-4995497-7093825?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B0013RB8HS&pd_rd_r=8a871638-612f-42e0-a6e4-1f4678e346d9&pd_rd_w=lylcx&pd_rd_wg=EOoQR&pf_rd_p=6329818b-951a-4e75-9070-7e13e9f9f308&pf_rd_r=9W3D458637TGGD9P0JSZ&psc=1&refRID=9W3D458637TGGD9P0JSZ
I added it to my “to-buy” list. Thanks!
Good day Glibs!! Nice beer, and 110 outside, this can be tough if you smoke cigs, I however created a reserved smoking section, with a tarp and some misters, cost, 15$ took the temps on the porch down 20 degrees,
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Av6sTcZPqr2szEkN7
Yusef and Mrs. Yusef are gonna make a fortune!
Those people were so, a joke I always laughed, mine is the redneck version of a swamp cooler, it works well,
/ HVAC God
So, trivia, I saw that a Bugatti broke the street car record with 304 MPH. No one need to go 304 MPH. I’m sure Bernie has the cure.
Im working on a decent beer buzz after spending the afternoon with Tres Sr. Then I noticed Space:1999 is on my Roku.
Bone-in ribeyes for the grill, homemade mac & cheese (for Jugsy), and creamed spinach for me.
HEY YUFUS!
Dude, does Hara Arena still exist? I’ve been to a lot of concerts there, but the acoustics really sucked ballz in that place. You’re almost a decade younger than me, so get off my lawn first.
Not so much. This is about a mile west of Chez GT.
Well, shit, you have to be a Buckeye to know that, deplorable.
Never went to many concerts there, but went ice skating there as a kid and to the occasional Dayton Gems hockey game. More significantly, I learned to drive in that big-ass parking lot, and my high school graduation ceremony was there. TBH, it was already in pretty bad shape before the tornado – the Wampler heirs were feuding over it (probably over who had to pay the taxes) and not doing squat to maintain it.
I lived in view of the Columbia ice arena in the Twin cities. It was shuttered but was still there.
Then in the last few years, the city planners (Fridley) tried to figure out what to do with the area.
They had a number of town halls and surveys, and the overwhelming desire of the neighborhood was to make it into a park.
So naturally after getting this very clear feedback from us, the city proceeded with demolition and then groundbreaking on a new state of the art City Hall and fire station.
They did like the park idea though, so they included landscaping and sidewalks and benches for City employees to take walks and have lunch outside.
Little Hitlers.
Bastages. There are three big empties within a couple miles of my house – the aforementioned arena, just west of there the lot that once held the mall of my childhood & adolescence, and a little ways south of my house the lot that once held an even older shopping shopping plaza. The last one is now being used to collect the debris from the adjacent apartment buildings that had JUST been fixed up before the tornado. I wish someone would come up with SOME reasonable use for all this space, but we’re not the fashionable side of town.
Salem Mall! Fuckin’ THE place to be as a teen in the 80s
Meh, if we are going to have governments then they will need a place to conduct business. You can argue about the extravagance of the new offices (I’m a Brutalist myself, but some of you people seem to want ‘pretty’ city halls) But at least its a legitimate function of government, Parks? not so much. If the overwhelming desire was for a park those whelmed desirers should have bought the land, created a foundation and built a park.
They could have kept doing business in the old city hall.
Unlike my town, where the town hall was in a former one-room schoolhouse and getting to be a severe fire hazard. And the cheap bastards wouldn’t even check the fire extinguishers on schedule.
For government buildings? I totally agree. They should have to work in the most ugly places imaginable to reflect what they’re doing to the public.
Has Brutalist architecture ever resulted in the elimination or reduction of a government program or agency? The repeal of any laws or regulations towards the restoration of individual liberty? The reduction of government spending by so much as one cent? If the answer is “yes”, then, by all means, make big, ugly, intimidating concrete slab public buildings. If not, then I’d prefer buildings that aren’t eyesores.
That’s a… good point.
I actually like some Brutalist.
Stupid threading. “Good point” being “for government buildings”.
Form follows function.
I haven’t gone full anarchist yet so my concern is more concerning economics, If there is a legitimate function of government it should be implemented in the most spartan manner possible, no frills, no waste, no enjoyment, get it done and go home. Not because I think they are enemies of the people but because frugality.
I saw Billy Squire and Def Leppard there.
Nope. It was sunk due to what GT said, and the May tornadoes finished it off.
I saw AC/DC there in….1983 ? Also Van Halen and Cheap Trick. Rasslin’, truck pulls, and hockey.
I learned to skate there around at 4 on double-runner skates.
And never forget- Bill Goodman’s Gun & Knife shows. And Ham-Vention.
Call a buddy, bring a friend!
Sup Tres! Spam and grilled cheese, and some kick ass beer!
So, trivia, I saw that a Bugatti broke the street car record with 304 MPH. No one need to go 304 MPH. I’m sure Bernie has the cure.
304 in a car which weighs about as much as a Suburban.
No thanks.
I thought the Bugatti was mostly carbon fiber? Maybe it’s the huge engine giving it that weight?
Don’t you mean the two huge engines? The second one supposedly only kicks in once the car tries to go faster than 150mph.
No one needs to faster than 150 mph! Or is it kph? Eurofags,..,
But it’s from Europe, oohhh,
Whatever! I have an American Ford SUV and an American Tesla.
Europeans can keep their cars.
Tesla? Do you do physics? In Cali? Glad you have disposable income,
/Coal burning cars.,..,
I charge it free from my solar roof.
It’s the closest thing to a luxury car I’ve owned, and it’s a Model 3, the “affordable” one.
After filling up my ancient Ford Expedition enough times at about $100 a week, I decided it was time for a change.
Last year was a $7500 tax refund and a $2500 State rebate for electric cars. Bad policy? Yes. Did I take the money? Also yes.
Another reason I can’t afford to live in my Home state, thanks a bunch!
Anytime!
*ducks*
To be fair, Teslas are made here in California so the company brings CA a fair amount of cash in too.
Even with them letting you keep more of your own money, how long to pay off that car saving $100 a week? Although I also get the tired of driving a beater mentality. Been there, and not sure there is a price for it especially if it gets to needing a bunch of repairs. That wears a person out.
Monthly Tesla payment=prior monthly gasoline bill for Expedition.
4 years to go.
Nice. And don’t get me wrong, I am not making a judgement on ones personal choice in an automobile. I say drive what you want. Hell I even accept Tundra’s choices which make no logical sense but he seems a nice person in spite of his brain damage.
Another possible question to ask just to kick you in the proverbial but not literal nuts…. is the company gonna be around for 4 years?
Because I have a feeling that Elon Musk is a shadier version of that monorail salesman character from the classic Simpsons. Back when people watched.
Considering that Elon was just in China checking out his new factory and charming China into exempting Tesla from their 10% sales tax on non-Chinese cars, I’d say yes.
Even if he sells it.
Hell I even accept Tundra’s choices which make no logical sense but he seems a nice person in spite of his brain damage.
He has a Spitfire, he can’t be all that bad.
More natural gas powered these days anyway.
Still not efficient as gasoline, never will be,
Is that true?
Yes it is.
It’s hard to say. Gasoline has to be refined from crude, while natgas only has to be purified. Natgas has a higher specific energy, while gasoline has a much more consistent energy density due to always being a liquid. CNG is cheaper than gasoline for the same energy content, but it has to be kept compressed. LNG is closer in price to gasoline, but has to be kept really cold. LNG also has losses in transport to keep it cold; the refrigerators are powered by the boiled LNG.
The answer to the question likely will depend on which is easier to get out of the ground at any particular time.
Hmm. Man i dunno here. I literally just spent 15 seconds researching this and I dunno.
My methodology was: I typed into google (a famously unbiased search engine) “are electric cars more efficient than gasoline cars” and the first and only response I got was from a government web site that declared electric cars to be twice as efficient.
We all know of course that the government is a most trustworthy source.
Please don’t provide any additional evidence or links as my mind is now made up here.
Are we having an argument? If so, I now declare victory.
If not, I also declare victory.
I’ve never really looked up the numbers, but from my time in S Korea 10 years ago – that was the only place I’ve ever seen LNG consumer cars (a lot of taxis) in addition to buses. In a lot of places you’d see standard gas stations and LNG gas stations right next to each other.
Don’t recall average prices or anything else – seems like you lost a lot of trunk space from the tank, but it may have evened out depending on the car model.
How do you even approach a question like that? There is no holistic measure of efficiency, and strictly speaking an electric car can be powered by any of a number of sources while gasoline cars are powered by, well, gasoline. Also, how do you amortize the power plant’s capital and operating costs? Do you put the buildout cost of charging infrastructure for electric cars on the ledger? Plentiful gas stations already exist, and electric is still a long way to catching up. How about the batteries? You need a lot more batteries for an electric car, whether lithium or lead-acid they’re nasty business, where do you put the cost of those?
Also, how do you amortize the power plant’s capital and operating costs? Do you put the buildout cost of charging infrastructure for electric cars on the ledger?
No no no, shit be free yo.
You guys are deep.
Got a memory like a sieve. Did KibbledKristen change her username or has she just been posting less frequently. Want to talk to her about some range stuff after seeing her tweets earlier today.
Have not seen her in a while.
I haven’t seen her for months, and saw some aircraft porn she would have liked
Partial holiday here. I still had to go to the office for a couple hours to get stuff together for tomorrow. I dragged my gf along to help a bit. ?
Popped open a bottle of Pinot Noir and grilled some filets for dinner. Things could be worse.
Nuce
No holiday for me, I wired a control panel this morning and now I’m machining some brake actuator parts.
Time to work my next adventure, see ya!
Heh.
I thought Yufus left San Dimas?
https://youtu.be/gOPEpsGJyCs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVP7LOTBVqo
A lot of my high-school buddies went into the CAF after grad (I tried, but my vision was too poor). The stories they told me were all of a piece with this video. Canadian troops are a little bit nuts, frankly.
I find the dribble of information about the Odessa guy interesting in a tinfoil hat kind of way, but that might just be me.
Ah ha. We need more red flag laws for people with “strange residences”.
No one needs a nonstandard living facility.
I have to say, though, who among us doesn’t call up 911 and the FBI to make rambling statements sometimes? It’s the most human of instincts really.
Damn.
There was a guy at my current employer, not one of my direct reports but someone who worked alongside my engineers.
One day I got a complaint from a new (female) engineer that he had made inappropriate advances to her. I reported it to HR but it was so out of character we thought that would be the end of it.
Then a couple of months later, he brought a gun to work. I immediately called the same HR rep and said I thought he was going through some sort of meltdown. Thought he might be offered help or therapy.
They fired him immediately. Glad he showed a few indicators that something was up. I’d hate to think what could have happened…
Do you even libertarian bro?
What kind of gun was it?
9mm handgun.
I hope the guy got help with whatever was going on in his life.
I had a work-study job at the local Air Force base computer center during college.
I saw a lot of airmen cycle through and I tried to socialize (former airman myself).
We got this new guy who was just another new guy and I knew him casually. One day in the keypunch room I saw him sucking on a cigarette. I mean, SUCKING on it. Like the coal was blazing. He burned the cig all the way down to the filter before crushing it out. He was muttering and as I edged closer to hear what he was saying he would drop his voice. The only thing that I could make out was the name “TSgt Cardenas”, the guy who was in charge of the techs at the computer center (including the students like me.)
A few days later we had a tour of a facility on the other side of the runway. I caught a ride with this dude and immediately knew that something serious was wrong. We could see the facility so he starts to drive across the runway to get there. I instantly yelled at him and told him that we could not do that. He was highly indignant and we argued until I finally got out of his car. Something I noticed; the ashtray in his car was filled to overflowing with cigarette butts that were burned all the way down to the filter.
The next day the medics came and took him away. Lesson to young hobbit: watch how they smoke.
Pffft. I bring a gun to work every day.
20 years +
Same here, twice as long. Usually I left it in my car and it never crossed my mind to go on the offense and harm other people.
But you won’t know it’s crossing your mind till it seizes control and makes you harm other people. That’s why guns are so insidious, and only background checks will stymie the influence.
One thing I have noticed that a lot of mentally ill people have is a tendency to be in denial about their illness because mental illness is so stigmatized. Imagine if you suddenly realized you were probably nuts. It is a worst nightmare come true. You will become a pariah. People that you have shunned in the past, suddenly you are one of them, one of THOSE people. Not only will you become a dysfunctional pariah but even you cant trust what is in your head. It is easy to see why people deal with that by developing a severe case of denial. You haven’t lost a career or property or liberty, you have lost yourself.
A few I have known have sought help. The vast majority do not. Even a slight suggestion that they talk to a professional about it throws them into a fit of anger and denial. A big part of denial is to shift blame. Their mental condition becomes everyone else’ fault. Frustration and powerlessness develops into rage. Others are plotting against them. Others have done things to make them the way they are. At some point I suppose they decide they are going to get revenge/show everyone how wrong they are/make everyone sorry for what they have done. The unrelenting stress is too much and they have a psychotic break. That’s when they get shooty.
We have a cultural problem in that we seem to be producing those conditions more these days. Maligning and demonizing people because of their gender, religion, or race is very psychologically destructive. Perfectly sane people are being treated like they are insane or inherently flawed. Some of those people may have more of a predisposition to mental instability and the cultural influences we have now tend to recreate the kinds of stresses the mentally ill face. We are creating monsters and I cant help but think much of it is done deliberately.
Wanna see mass shootings(actual ones, not the fake ones the perpetrators of this nonsense lump in with them)greatly reduced? Kill identity politics and the endless racist accusations that someone’s flaws are due to their race. Get rid of Gun-Free zones entirely. Stop stigmatizing mental illness. My bet? Ten years would pass without this horror happening again. We are always going to have one or two mass killings no matter what the gun laws are but we can damned sure stop putting people in such a dark place and give them a little hope.