The following review is for the Article “Individualism: True and False”, which can be found in the book: “Individualism and Economic Order” by F. A. Hayek. The Mises Institute graciously provides a pdf or ebook copy of this book for free here.
When slightly younger me was in college I was taking my required History of Economic Thought course. I had always been free market leaning, but had been a bit put off by Neo-Classical Economics. When my instructor, a real deal Marxist/Moaist, taught us about the “Cambridge Capital Controversy“, I was a completely shaken. I knew I couldn’t stick with the Neo-Classical framework, as it was founded on circular reasoning. Fortunately, the professor had assigned us to read one book by an influential economist, and present it to the class. While scanning through the list of approved books I saw Individualism and Economic Order by F. A. Hayek. It looked right up my alley. I had heard of Hayek before, but never read any of his works. I knew he was a free market economist, but also a “Gold Bug”, so younger me had avoided him as a wrong-thinker. Now that my faith in those who had derided him for his monetary views was destroyed, why not give him a shot?
Reading and studying this book, which is a series of related articles by Hayek, was a pivotal moment for my political ideological growth, and in particular the first Article “Individualism: True and False”. What Hayek talked about made thoughts I had already been having clarify. It resolved conflicts I had been tussling with and urged me to investigate more into him and the Austrian school of thought. And that is why i am today reviewing the primary article from the book.
In “Individualism: True and False”, Hayek sets the tone for the rest of the book, arguing for the social system of Individualism. But before he can do that, he needs to clear some things up. You see, in Hayek’s mind there is a lot of confusion in the world about what Individualism is. Some of that confusion is created intentionally, by the opponents of individualism, and some springs from the fact that there are two distinct philosophical lines of thought that claim the title of Individualism. Hayek (in a true Scottish fashion) labels these as “True” individualism, and “False” individualism.
For “True” individualism, Hayek sees it’s roots in the Scottish Enlightenment and subsequent British philosophers. Thinkers like Adam Smith, David Hume and Edmund Burke as well as Lord Acton and Alexis de Tocqueville, are the foremost paragons of this type of individualism. The ideas espoused by these men establish a theory of society in which ” there is no other way toward an understanding of social phenomena but through our understanding of individual actions directed toward other people and guided by their expected behavior.” In other words, it is a theory of society, that sees the individual actor as paramount. (It is interesting to note that this is in stark contrast to a common criticism that individualism sees men as isolated individuals, best understood without the context of society). To these philosophers, while human reason was interesting, and could play a role in individual decision making, it was neither paramount or necessary to their theory of society. In fact, they argued that the greatest institutions of man were mostly created spontaneously from the interactions of independent actors, creating a system greater than the designs of those participating in it.
In contrast, Hayek saw a “False” or “Rationalistic” individualism. This theory, espoused by continental philosophers like Rousseau, and the physiocrats, saw all discoverable order as the result of a Rational Mind. To them the individuals rationality was the pinnacle of humanity. Any system that was not rationally planned or designed was from the start inferior to a planned system. This system of thought, however almost always lead to the worst aspects of collectivism. Even today you can hear it’s echos in calls for Communism. An article in favor of “Disaster Communism”, has the author arguing “Climate change represents the biggest threat humanity has ever faced. Why does it seem that we cannot do anything about it? Because the productive forces we created are totally outside our rational control.”.
Once he has cleared up and segregated these two competing forms of “Individualism”, Hayek is able to tussle with many common critiques and show why they are misplaced. I would, however be remiss to explain these here, and leave their discovery as an exercise for you to read.
This Article is a fantastic primer for anyone who may be amiable to libertarian thought, but is not so simplistic as to be overlooked by those who are already on board. It is fairly simple, and does not dive into any deep economic concepts that could be confusing. Recommended age: 17 +. The rest of his book is very good as well, though can get a bit technical and dry at times.
Without planning there is chaos
With planning, there is chaos.
Not if The Right People are in charge
There are no right people.
Plans are worthless, but planning is everything.
– Dwight Eisenhower
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
No order survives contact with the second person in the chain of command.
A bad plan executed with violence and authority is better than a great plan executed with timidity.
Chaos isn’t a bad thing, it’s just hard to plan for.
Do you hear the voices too?
You’ve traveled with my wife and family?
My wife will spend tons of time planning out vacations. Then when it comes time to execute everything goes to shit because she never sticks to the schedule. For example, we will still be trying to feed kids at 11 am when the day’s itinerary called for us to be at Tourist Attraction A at 8:30 am.
It bugged me a lot when I first started, but then I finally realized that none of the rest of them were all that worked up about blowing the schedule out, so why should I?
* If left to my own devices, the kids would be fed and clothed and on the road by 8 easy. But my wife won’t let me be “mean” to the kids and they are allowed to run around like crazy people all morning while demanding their own breakfast menu (which my wife then delivers on)
Been there. I want my vacation to run with maximum efficiency.
I used to carefully plan out beers at Great Taste of the Midwest. Within the first hour I would throw that away and just wander around drinking interesting stuff for the next 4 hours.
I would think the ability to hold to a plan would decrease over time at a beer festival.
It does.
Although in the last hour, the plan to hit as many tents as possible works well…and poorly.
This is a problem with no solution for our kind. People believe a plan must be better than the alternatives although few understand what those are
Doesn’t matter, you can’t just let people do whatever they want! They might even do something I personally do not like! So you see, we have to need a plan even if it makes things worse. /most people
But, but, how can there be any graft without a plan? Plan = Brother-in-Law Affect. Committees, man, so more can get in on the action.
That’s probably true. The problem is, do we rely on a central planner, with extremely limited knowledge of individual circumstances? Or do we accept that decentralized planning by individuals based on their own distributed knowledge is going to have much more effective results?
Hail, Eris!
Or as another site* I read states: our options are chaotic but smart or orderly but dumb.
*Strongtowns.org
Have you ever read “A Conflict of Visions” by Thomas Sowell? Slightly different take than Hayek, but Sowell’s arguments follow similar lines as he draws a distinction between the constrained and unconstrained visions of human nature.
It makes an excellent follow up to Hayek.
Excellent review and excellent topic.
We need more articles like this that discuss basic libertarian concepts and serve as Glibertarian “Chick Tracts”.
Except, by “Chick” I mean “SugarFree”.
Except, by “Chick” I mean “SugarFree”.
Well, SugarFree definitely has the “visions of hell” part down. Almost too well.
When I think of Chick(s), I think of Q.
Thank you. I’ve been thinking about this article a lot, especially with the resurgence of socialism
I thought Q already had the chick tracts beat.
I think you mean Brooksie and his huge tracts of land in Montana
I suspect Brooks is actually an urbanite living in a microstudio apartment in Chicago.
Ah, but of course.
Thanks for the article. And the link to Hayek’s.
I’m starting to develop an interest in Austrian School economics (although I doubt I can ever buy fully into methodological praxeology and the rejection of mathematics). I read a primer on it recently, and one of the things that struck me is how much of it, today, isn’t so much considered “Austrian” economics, so much as just “economics”.
One of the things that’s stymieing me so far, is figuring out what books I should go about reading. I know I should pick up Human Action or Man Economy and the State, but I’m not sure I should start with the magna opera.
It is not a complete rejection of mathematics
Its still Luddite thinking.
*shrugs*
I’m all for correctly criticizing economics’ lab-coat envy and accepting that it will never be a “pure” discipline precisely because it deals with human behavior at the individual level and in aggregate.
“You are doing it wrong” and “You can never do it right” are different propositions. Most Austrians do the second, in my experience.
“You can never do it right”
I’d say that the reason why Austrians are strict is off a very methodological disagreement about how preferences can be modeled. Highly mathematical economists want to use a system of “Utility” that uses cardinal vs ordinal utility AND map that utility between different individuals. Those break a lot of assumptions that belie basic economic reasoning.
So it’s not a “You can never do it right” because no one is good enough. It’s a “You can never do it right” because it is not possible. It’s almost like criticizing any physicist who says “You can’t build perpetual motion machines” as a ludite.
Agreed. As much as I think psychohistory was a cool concept in Foundation, it’s never going to happen.
Not to mention that the Austrians are far more aware of the potential abuse of assuming people are just numbers in a formula that can be manipulated “for the greater good.”
In this example, it would be like a physicist saying “you can’t build a perpetual motion machine” and then a bunch of engineer pull out a perpetual motion machine.
The last 5 to 10 years have seen the production of products and services based on calculations that the Austrians assured us could never be done. It happened when the economists started thinking like engineers and became driven by the profit motive instead of lab-coat-jealous social scientists.
TLDR: 1950’s era Austrian “I can’t see how a computer could solve this problem” 2018 Silicon Valley “Hold my $2,000-a-year subscription-model juice”.
1950’s era Austrian “I can’t see how a computer could solve this problem” 2018 Silicon Valley “Hold my $2,000-a-year subscription-model juice”.
I think we’re talking about different things. Are we talking about the Socialist Calculation problem, or Macroeconomic Models? because those are flawed.
if we’re talking about price analysis for a single product then… that’s something else.
I always saw praxeology as a recognition of the limitations of empiricism when studying systems where controls cannot be devised and variables are unable to be isolated. Because of that, Austrians were wary of econometrics as generally useless, mostly misleading, and at worst leading to cargo cult science. I think they threw out the baby with the bath water, but it never stuck me as luddite thinking.
Nice review. Hayak always seems to require learning new jargon, but it is often worth it. His law vs legislation is a valuable distinction, for example.
Thanks Leap. Apart from this book and “Road To Serfdom” (which personally i found disappointing) i haven’t read a whole lot of Hayek, so I’ll have to pick it up.
This always reminds me of the contrast between psychology and sociology. For a long time I’ve felt that the sociology department is in charge of most universities.
Hey TOK! Good to see ya!
You too!
How’s the team? Still playing D?
We’re doing great! I’m needed on B team for now. Last weekend we played 3 games against some newer teams and went 3-0. I played 3 full games on D and got 3 goals and 2 assists. For one I skated coast to coast and went top shelf over the last D man. Next week we are in St Louis for the NHL classic. We are playing short so more full games for me (no complaints here). A team was cool but B is less intense and more fun.
That’s great!
Time to change your name to “Bar Down Kevin”!
If I ever get off my ass to write the article, I plan to regale you all with the fact that the father of American sociology was also a founding father of American libertarianism. In 19th Century American universities, sociology used to be the story of how top-down central planning was a futile endeavor because it will never supplant local norms and mores – what Sumner called ‘folkways'”.
So, a racist hate-monger, huh?
The funny thing is, this guy couldn’t get a job at a junior college today.
Of course. He spoke out quite strongly against the eugenics policies of the o.g. Progressives.
A complete and unrepentant racist.
OK, here’s one. Who were the o.g. Proggies? I always thought it really got rolling in the first 20 years of the 20th century, but it’s clearly older than that.
I would say the roots are really in the anti-trust movement and the Northern Protestant Republicans who saw the government as a tool to protect society from Catholics and their alcohol.
What do you find with every four Catholics?
A fifth!
Thanks. I knew we must be in there somewhere.
Because one of them is always pregnant what with the Pope’s forbidding contraception right?
That would be a great read. The few sociology classes I took all had to do with how individuals are all a product of society and have no agency, therefore “society” should take of everything.
I only had one sociology class it it was very enlightening for me. It taught me to think from other people’s perspective. I had a great professor who encouraged discussion amping the students and never pushed his viewpoints. Granted this was in 2000, so maybe wokism wasn’t as big.
Geez. I don’t know if it’s this phone trying to predict what I’m typing or I’m having a stroke.
Why can’t it be both?
Thanks for the review!
He’s my second favorite Hayek.
Your summary of the true v false definition is excellent.
He’s my second favorite Hayek.
I’m assuming your favorite operates in the visual arts, not the literary ones.
Good assumption.
So when Hayeksplosives left Minnesoda, you dropped her in the Hayek Poll?
Good point. He’s my third favorite.
It’s ok. I know when I’ve been bested, and Salma Hayek is clearly a shoo-in for Numero Uno.
There’s one very important category where you’re ahead of the pack – you respond to people here.
So your saying hayeksplosives was not unresponsive?
+1 plaster cast of Frida Kahlo.
Your summary of the true v false definition is excellent.
That really means a lot. Thank you Tundra!
Disparaging tweet or witness intimidation? You decide!
Schiff lauded her for the courage to testify notwithstanding the fact the president “implicitly threatened you in that call record.”
“And now the president in real time is attacking you. What effect do you think that has on other witnesses’ willing to come forward and expose wrongdoing?” Schiff asked.
“It’s very intimidating,” she said.
“Designed to intimidate, is it not?” he asked.
“I mean I can’t speak to what the president is trying to do, but I think the effect is to be intimidating,” she said.
“Well I want to let you know ambassador, that some of us here take witness intimidation very, very seriously,” Schiff warned.
some of us here take witness intimidation very, very seriously,
Is this the same guy who told officials not to contact State Department lawyers?
Hillary Clinton✔
@HillaryClinton
Witness intimidation is a crime, no matter who does it. Full stop.
Oh, I see. La Abuela is serious. What about suiciding them? (like Jefferey Epstien, who didn’t kill himself.)
I’m old enough to remember when Vince Foster didn’t kill himself.
Witness Suicide is a completely different thing.
Don’t you think Epstein ‘witnessed’ some ‘things’?
It’s not intimidation when you just kill them.
It sure intimidates the 30 other people who know the truth, though.
This is the true point.
C’mon Hillary! Trump was just “extremely careless” in his comments about the witnesses. No reasonable prosecutor would ever charge him for that.
Scott Wong✔
@scottwongDC
SWALWELL tells me Trump’s tweets at Yovanovitch underscores the president’s “guilt”
“Innocent people just don’t do that,” he tells me
Do what? Defend themselves?
And forgot this
How the fuck can that whale on the right ‘serve and protect’ anything? Just the stress of pulling her gun out of her holster would cause her to experience chest pains.
“That’s a man, baby!”
She’s a Meat Shield type body guard. You’d be surprised how many bullets she could take and keep going.
I think the technical term is “soft cover”.
Same shit they pulled on Kavanaugh, where getting mad about being falsely accused somehow proved he was guilty.
The technical term for it is “kafkatrapping”.
Exactly. Innocent people don’t get accused, thus doing have to be burned for being witches.
SWALWELL tells me
Oh, well, that’s settled then.
I wonder what his views are on people who threaten to nuke their fellow citizens?
Jan Postma✔
@_janpostma_
Analyse op Fox News is interessanter dan andere zenders op dit moment. Chris Wallace: “If you are not moved by the testimony of Marie Yovanovitch today, you don’t have a pulse.”
Feels > Facts
///tagfail
I’m moved to a white-hot rage.
They are really trying to argue that this is witness intimidation?
How can any functioning adult say they would be “very intimidated” by that. Upset, sure. Maybe even angry. But intimidated?
READ BETWEEN THE LINES, TRUMPTARD!
A lawyer once warned me not to contact someone that was pretty obviously planning on committing perjury. The lawyer’s exact words were “witness tampering is a broad brush”, and any attempt to resolve the situation or get them to see sense could be construed as a criminal act.
If a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich, surely they won’t have any difficulty indicting a living human being of witness tampering.
One thing that Trump is a master of is propaganda.
He’s not trying to intimidate the ambassador to silence. Rather he wants people talking about her. He wants his enemies defending her. He wants her being portrayed by the news media as a heroine, the self-effacing public servant.
Which suggests to me that he thinks she is the weak link… That in defending her they will be undermining themselves in the long run.
If the stories about the Obama admin and its friends engaging in influence peddling exchanging U.S. financial support for the Ukranian state in return for sinecures paid to their immediate relatives are true, then this Ambassador had to be in the thick of it. It’s possible, nay likely, that she was somehow wetting her beak or being rewarded for facilitating or ignoring the influence peddling.
Moreover, the impeachment effort is not a serious attempt to impeach the president. Everyone knows that in the end the Senate is not voting to impeach over what amounts to a policy difference. It’s entirely purposed towards two aims:
1) To delay Trump naming RGB’s successor as long as is possible
2) To get Trump voters to stay home and motivate anti-Trump voters who would otherwise sit out the election to come to the polls next fall.
Thus this is really a PR fight. And to me it looks like what he is doing is smacking them in the face and inducing them to take a public position that is going to hurt them, all of which are appropriate actions in a PR fight.
To get Trump voters to stay home and motivate anti-Trump voters who would otherwise sit out the election to come to the polls next fall.
It could work. Who knows? Nobody ever went broke (or lost an election) by underestimating the intelligence of the general public.
I’m hoping it generates a backlash. But you know what? The Kavanaugh kangaroo court didn’t; in fact, given the gains the Dems made, it probably helped them. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Trump kangaroo court works out the same way.
It will help them, but not very much.
Trump seems to use a variant of the North Korea fight/talk, talk/fight strategy; his public pronouncements are used as a form of battle-field preparation. As such what he is not drawing people’s attention to is as significant as what he is drawing people’s attention to.
Notice the complete lack of bluster regarding Attorney General Barr’s investigation?
Notice his complete lack of twitter engagement with Comey, Brennan etc?
I really think this IG report is going to be a complete shit-show that brings the Obama-appointees & the Justice department into complete disrepute.
My guess is that the people who will be prosecuted are the ones Trump & his staff are utterly ignoring. He wants to ensure that they can’t claim that he prevented them from getting a fair trial by prejudicing potential jurors.
I think that the pool of potential criminal defendants are entirely within the Justice Dept and in the CIA. I think that the State Department is not facing criminal investigation, and so he’s going on a propaganda war against them. But I think that when this is all over, the career guys in State are going to look like blundering nincompoops who were either utterly oblivious to the actual influence peddling being engaged in by Kerry, Biden, Clinton etc. or aware of it but utterly derelict in their duty to put a stop to it.
I think the Democrats are in an incredibly weak position. I’m reminded of a chess game where a guy is sacrificing rooks and his queen in a desperate attempt to wiggle out of a checkmate. They have sacrificed a lot of guys in the executive branch in a desperate attempt to prevent Trump from putting his stamp on the executive branch and the judiciary. When your plan for recovering power is dependent on a PR campaign by partisan members of the state department bureaucracy, you are at the stage where you are ordering your handful of surviving half-starved soldiers drawn from the motor pool to fix bayonets and charge the enemy pill-boxes.
Banzai, motherfuckers.
I really think this IG report is going to be a complete shit-show that brings the Obama-appointees & the Justice department into complete disrepute.
I hope so, but to date Rosenstein has been a complete company man – his reports are beautifully calculated to close the issue without anyone who matters actually being held accountable. His goal isn’t to reform the FBI/DOJ, its to protect it.
I think the Democrats are in an incredibly weak position.
Viewed objectively, on the merits? Absolutely. But they aren’t even trying to win on the merits. The impeachment vote is locked in. The hearings are purely to provide raw material for their propagandists in the media to spin.
I like your optimism.
“The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know, about what they imagine they can design.”-George Orwell–Starship Troopers
That was the one with time dilation and continuing war, right?
Read another book, potterhead!
Another Book?
/shameless plug.
Potterhead?
You wound me rat! I’ve not read a single one of those books (nor seen the movies).
You mean you don’t make the crockery your beers are stored in?
My beer is stored in plastic or stainless steel (depending on if it’s ferementing or prepped for serving).
So you’re the one who got away? Even my Dad read them, and he’s in his 80’s now.
I read one. It was so forgettable that I can’t even remember which one it was.
What a bunch of idiots around here, can’t connect a single quote to the correct author and or book.
— random stranger coming across this site
I know that quote – it was in Faulkner’s Neuromancer.
Thanks for saving me the trouble of typing this out!!
In other words, it is a theory of society, that sees the individual actor as paramount.
I take this to mean “There is no such thing as ‘the economy’, there is only the aggregate result of millions/billions of individual actions and transactions.”
Because that’s my view.
Individualism is for chumps
New Jersey is seeking more than $640 million from Uber in taxes and penalties, saying the ride-hailing company misclassified its drivers as independent contractors.
The decision is the latest setback for Uber and other companies in the so-called “gig economy” that rely heavily on contract labor to deliver the services at the heart of their popular apps.
Worker advocates say that job classification hurts the laborers and the states where they live, which miss out on tax revenues.
New Jersey’s labor department told Uber it, along with its subsidiary Rasier, owes $523 million in overdue taxes form the last four years and is also facing fines and interest of $119 million, according to letters from the department that were first reported Thursday by Bloomberg Law.
Uber disputed the state’s findings. “We are challenging this preliminary but incorrect determination, because drivers are independent contractors in New Jersey and elsewhere,” the San Francisco-based company said in a statement.
The move was hailed as a victory by those pushing for better working conditions for Uber’s drivers. Many of Uber’s workers are part-time, but others work long hours and rely on ride-hailing as their sole source of income.
“I have clients who are Uber drivers that are sleeping in their cars because they cannot afford the basic necessities, they can’t afford a place to live,” said Shannon Liss-Riordan, partner at Lichten & Liss-Riordan, who has represented drivers in the employment classification cases. “That’s not acceptable.”
You can’t make your own decisions about where and how you work. You need guidance from society.
And when her clients lose their Uber jobs, their lives are going to get better how?
I suspect that if they’re the sorts of people who have both ended up in their car, and hired a lawyer to go after their only source of income, they’re not the best at making decisions.
Now some people will end up there through no fault of their own, but these are less prone to killing their lifeline.
We’ll make it illegal for them to be laid off!
Uber’s learning who really runs the show in states like NJ and NY – and it ain’t the worker or the customer.
Good thing the states have those WORKER ADVOCATES to look out for their tax interests. FFS.
But at least Uber drivers in Jersey don’t have to pump their own gas, so they have to take that perk into strong consideration.
If they were employees, they’d be fired for sleeping in the workplace.
Exactly. Innocent people don’t get accused, thus doing have to be burned for being witches.
Why would they throw him in jail, if he’s not guilty?
Look, the old system is broken. Wrong think must be judged by those with right think, it’s the only way.
Well, that sucks.
I was just rounding on our Pediatric Intensive Care Unit. We were talking about one of their patients just outside the room. The wall is glass, so you could see the monitors and everything. Mom and Dad and two kids, probably 6 and 10 years old, and the (very sick) patient – unconscious, semi-decompensating, terminal. The conversation was about whether or not to withdraw care.
While we are standing there talking and looking for the latest EEG results (brain activity), the monitor flatlines. I never, ever again in my life, want to see a six-month old baby’s monitor flatline.
God, man, that’s rough to even read about.
Uffda. We’ve lost several kids as miscarriages and that was terrible. I can’t imagine how much worse it must be for parents who lose an infant.
Sorry to hear that man.
Man – that’s awful.
Fortunately, we had an empty room next door that had already been set up for the kids – TV, toys, etc. They were in there. And the patient had a DNR order, so everybody was spared the Rapid Response Team barreling in to try to resuscitate. All in all, believe it or not, it could have been worse. Just . . . damn.
Couldn’t work in peds – the patients in those units are very sick, and they lose one periodically. Hell, from time to time we even have children in our hospice. Thank God we have people who can do that work, because I just couldn’t.
My wife worked critical care as an RN. It burned her out. She decided to get an MBA and that’s how I met her in graduate school.
She says she thinks she could do it now because of the support of having a family and some more life experience. But she said as a young person she just found it too heart breaking.
The hospice workers who helped my mom (and the family) this fall were unbelievably good. Like you, I have no idea how people can deal with circumstances like that every day.
Good on them though.
Amen.
One of my best friends died two years ago from lymphoma. The folks at the hospice couldn’t have been nicer and more caring to his family and friends.
Jimbo, you’re right; I don’t know how they manage to endure what they do.
That’s horrible, sorry RC. Sounds like some drinks are in order after work.
Good thing the states have those WORKER ADVOCATES to look out for their tax interests. FFS.
That jumped out at me, too. How does letting the government glom onto a bunch of money help those people “sleeping in their cars”?
Homeless shelters, duh.
“This theory, espoused by continental philosophers like Rousseau, and the physiocrats, saw all discoverable order as the result of a Rational Mind. To them the individuals rationality was the pinnacle of humanity. Any system that was not rationally planned or designed was from the start inferior to a planned system. This system of thought, however almost always lead to the worst aspects of collectivism. Even today you can hear it’s echos in calls for Communism.”
The continental Enlightenment, which remains the more popular variant and the far more influential version, begat Positivism which begat Scientific Socialism. Ergo, socialism is more of a true expression of “liberalism” then free markets.
^Get a load of Winston up here!^
Not true. I did not go on a screed condemning Jeffrey Tucker.
check and mate
^Get a load of
WinstonTulpa up here!^Exactly what Tulpa would say!
Is this the part where we start picking and choosing what is and isn’t liberalism in order to justify our predetermined conclusion? I’ll start: Rousseau isn’t an Enlightenment thinker, despite his preeminence among liberals in his day.
Tulsi Gabbard Apologist, it’s okay. You can tell us that you’re a penguin. Or a suburban pot-bellied snow chicken if you prefer.
If only suburban pot-bellied snow chickens care about the US arming ISIS and committing genocide overseas then suburban pot-bellied snow chickens are the only logical people in this country.
Penguins matter
All birds matter.
No. Only penguins.
Pigeon killa
Pigeons are not birds. They are sky rats.
I like how you think.
I have read a lot of Hayek, von Mises, Hazlett and many others. Occasionally I would run into something I didn’t understand and wished that I had someone to discuss it with. Now my mind is made up.
Just leave me alone.
Is there a social contract I can sign promising to leave everyone else alone if they leave me alone?
Officer am I free to gambol?
Did this make the morning links? I’ve actually been working…
Video showing teen with no arms or legs being tackled and pinned by deputy prompts Arizona investigation
I’d have been surprised if the quadruple amputee did manage to get far.
He would have had better luck if he had bear arms.
Well, they Officers has reason to fear for their lives. How would you handcuff that guy?
Is his name Matt?
If he was arrested in the Autumn, with leaves on the ground, I think his name might have been Russel.
When they throw him in the pool, it’ll be Bob.
And hang him on the wall to dry? Art.
my first and middle name
Hey Yusef. How are thing with you and yours?
When they come back six months later, his name will be Pete.
Pima County. What a surprise.
Never mind, I was thinking of Maricopa County. Hopefully Pima’s no more screwed up than the rest of the country.
“Hopefully Pima’s no more screwed up than the rest of the country.”
Broward County would like a word with you.
Pima County Sheriff’s Office are the ones who killed Jose Guerena, so…..
WTF.
And once again I’m glad we know the race of everyone involved.
What the fucking fuck? I would have sworn this had to be Maricopa (Phoenix), not Pima (Tucson).
Of. Course.
To be fair to the deputy, he just about had to go for a headlock. Not a lot of other options.
*narrows gaze*
Wraparound sunglasses.
What do you call a teen with no arms or legs being tackled and pinned by deputy?
BarryA Civil Rights suit against the state.May as well be against that tax payers, that’s who’s picking up the tab.
If you read the fine print in the footnote for paragraph 43 in the third addendum of the social contract you clearly didn’t know you signed, you can clearly see that that money never belonged to you.
The money Barry gets is coming back to the state anyway, so what does it matter, citizen?
Thalidomide is a hell of a drug!
My wife is watching one of those films where the hero cop goes after the bad drug cartel dudes. Seriously, it’s been done more than zombie flicks.
I told her, they’re all the bad guys. She says ‘What?’, and I say ‘They’re all the bad buys, the cop too’.
So I try again, in vain, to make the argument that we created the ‘bad cartel guys’ by making drugs illegal. Feature, not bug. Look at all the overburdened court systems, the overcrowded prisons, the DEA, the extra cops just to enforce drug laws, the mandatory drug treatment centers, and throw in the cartels. You have one hell of a profitable chain of industry going on there. Does that really look accidental to anyone?
Yes. When it’s planned, it looks like serfdom. This is a Rube Goldberg machine of small amoral choices stacking up on top of each other.
Drives me nuts when people conflate the bad effects of drug abuse and the bad effects of the black market in drugs.
“We have to outlaw drugs to shut down the drug dealers!”
No, you moron, you created the drug dealers by outlawing the drugs.
“No, you moron, you created the drug dealers by outlawing the drugs.”
Feature, not bug.
I remember a few years ago, I had the opportunity to explain this to a sitting judge. He was like 75 years old, and has been in law enforcement since he was 17 (His words. Wait for that to sink in). It was the first time he had ever heard about this concept, and I explained that with legalized MJ, you won’t get cartels selling in the US, you get bankers selling MJ in the US, if you let them. And then they’ll resolve their conflicts with the courts, instead of bullets. Just like when prohibition was repealed and the mobsters died out and Anhiezer Bush never got into a shooting match with Coors. But don’t worry, he was able to let the argument slide off him like Teflon. I could tell it didn’t bedevil him after our conversation was over.
Well, he was part of the machine. You were threatening his moral high ground.
a sitting judge. He was like 75 years old, and has been in law enforcement since he was 17 (His words. Wait for that to sink in).
*stares at screen, mouth agape, remaining hope for humanity trickling out one earhole in a thin, bloody stream*
That drives me absolutely crazy, too. Somebody says drugs should be illegal because drugs are bad, I ask why are they bad, and they bring up a bunch of stuff directly related to them being illegal. They will agree with me on each individual point… but their overall belief that “drugs are bad” and that they should be illegal is unshakable.
Or: It’s ADDICTIVE!
Which of course, most things are, but it’s bad for bad things.
Sure. And I point out that most drugs are less addictive than cigarettes, and that alcohol is also addictive, and then I ask, “But how does that hurt other people?” And they bring up stuff like how they have to steal to support their habit, which brings us right back to the effects of being illegal.
I like to say that the government is far more addicted to taxes than anybody is to [pick your favorite drug].
Now that the government is the cartel in most states and now you get busted not for possessing illegal drugs, but for possessing illegal drugs that you have not paid the requisite tax on does that mean the War on Drugs is over now that’s it’s re-branded as a War on Tax Avoidance?
War on Tax Avoidance?
In the end…. Isn’t that the main thing that it is always about?
But I was told this was progress
Considering that taxes on marijuana can be upwards of 60% of the product’s actual value, thus making legal marijuana far more expensive than that bought on the street, and taking into account that marijuana cultivation is less difficult than tobacco cultivation or alcohol distilling (two other products with sin taxes) it is inevitable (as CA has discovered) that the black market for marijuana will continue to thrive. Therefore, in order to collect revenues, enforcement of illegal marijuana possession will have to increase, as has been occurring. So what’s changed?
Considering that taxes on marijuana can be upwards of 60% of the product’s actual value,
Well to play de debil weeds advocate, you are not counting the risk of going to jail as a cost. A lot of people will pay the higher premium because they just want to smoke weed, but don’t want to go to jail. Before there was not a legal way to have that option. Now there is. So a lot of people will select to use the government approved way, so it doesn’t actually follow that Enforcement costs will have to go up.
It is definitely not a perfect or even great system. But legalized through certain means is going to be preferable to outright prohibition.
A lot of people will pay the higher premium because they just want to smoke weed, but don’t want to go to jail.
Protection money. I wish the parallels between organized crime and the government weren’t so many an obvious, but here we are.
A lot of people will buy it legally. But, people who were already buying marijuana on the black market may stay within that market if they assume that the consequences are not significant enough to avoid the risk. Thus, why CA has increased its prosecution of people who are purchasing on the black market.
You can’t say people respond to incentives and disincentives
You can’t say people respond to incentives and disincentives
Um… What? I’m thinking i’m misunderstanding what you mean there. People certainly do respond, and “Not going to jail” is a big incentive to buy the weed at legal dispensaries. I’ll agree that the method of legalization can lead to many people not moving over because they already had their dealer and whatnot. However my point is that a situation where people arent being thrown in jail for having marijuana (even if they have do so at state mandated locations) is preferable to Jail for anyone who buys.
I get that the Government can screw this up, and that it might have the perverse incentive of prosecuting “black Market” dealers still, but at least now those who possess it are not being prosecuted.
but at least now those who possess it are not being prosecuted.
“but at least now those who possess it are not being prosecuted.”
Those who possess it legally.
What I meant to say is “you can’t say people DON’T respond to incentives and disincentives” and if we’re being honest the same people who are more likely to continue purchasing marijuana on the black market versus the legal market are the same people who would have been more prone to prosecution when marijuana was completely illegal. Those with means will naturally move over to the legal market, because an increased price of over 25% is not a significant enough disincentive for them, however, this is the demographic that was least likely to be prosecuted for possession under the old system anyways. Those with less means are likely to remain on the black market and to an extent it will be as if marijuana was never legalized in their world.
Of course, the scheme designed is an improvement from the previous regime, but it falls short of actual legalization. We have just replaced cartels with a new cartel. Primarily because, unlike other products that are subject to sin taxes, marijuana is more easy to cultivate and acquire than alcohol or tobacco. The choice confronting many states at this point is to either reducing the sin tax even further or allow the black market to thrive unmolested.
Of course, the scheme designed is an improvement from the previous regime, but it falls short of actual legalization. We have just replaced cartels with a new cartel. Primarily because, unlike other products that are subject to sin taxes, marijuana is more easy to cultivate and acquire than alcohol or tobacco. The choice confronting many states at this point is to either reducing the sin tax even further or allow the black market to thrive unmolested.
I agree wholeheartedly
enforcement of illegal marijuana possession will have to increase
Assuming you live in a state with legal funpot, and have amounts that are under the limit for possessing legal funpot, how can they go after you for possessing marijuana?
People are still arrested for purchasing marijuana on the black market even in states where marijuana is legal (if purchased from legal distributors and the required taxes paid).
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/11/las-black-market-for-weed-threatens-the-growth-of-its-legal-business.html
FTA:
“Feuer recently said his office has shut down 151 illegal dispensaries, with more criminal prosecutions underway. At the same time, more than 1,000 defendants connected to illegal dispensaries and delivery services have been prosecuted, he said.”
Illegal purchase and sale? Sure.
Possession is a different thing.
“Illegal purchase and sale? Sure.
Possession is a different thing.”
In what way? If you posses marijuana that does not have the proper stamp or whatever or if you are arrested for buying marijuana from an unlicensed dispensary is it really different in any way?
I don’t see how they can prove that marijuana in your possession wasn’t legally purchased. Once its rolled into a joint, put into your one-hitter or vaporizer, or just put in a film can (do people still do that?) or baggie, how can they tell?
Is there a requirement that you keep the stamp or whatever showing it was legally purchased on your person or with the pot?
Your article only refers to purchasing marijuana on the black market, illegal dispensaries and illegal delivery services. I don’t see a reference to mere possession.
prove
You’re slaying me here Dean!
Define Illegal? and no, it’s no more expensive than it ever was, the tax is built into the Sale yes, but the price didn’t change, in Cali,
https://priceonomics.com/the-most-expensive-and-cheapest-cities-to-buy/
We calculated the average price of street marijuana from online websites, and we found that the incentive to hit the black market is greatest in California. By our estimates, buying marijuana on the black market saves consumers 27%—more than double the percentage savings in any other state.
Even the State of California admitted in its last budget that the under performance of marijuana tax revenues was due to people choosing to buy marijuana at a comparatively cheaper rate on the black market
it is inevitable (as CA has discovered) that the black market for marijuana will continue to thrive.
My impression is that California’s list of ways to screw up the market for legal marijuana far exceeds just exorbitant taxes. They go so far as to select legal growers on the basis of….wait for it….social justice.
Watching Escobar on Netflix was interesting. No dispute that Escobar and his crew did some evil shit. I came away from that series though with the view that the State Department and the DEA were the true villains in Columbia.
Excellent show. I wouldn’t say State and the DEA were the true villains (Escobar bombed a school, fer chrissakes), but they certainly weren’t the good guys, either.
I may be remembering wrong, but it seemed like the worst shit that Escobar did was in response to the State Department and DEA pushing him. For example, I think he bombed that plane to pushback against the law being pushed that would allow extradition of Narcos to the United States.
That doesn’t excuse Escobar’s actions, but I don’t know that he would have pushed the way he did without the interference of the United States in Columbia.
Should I make the 90 minute drive past lake george to visit a store with high prices and spend another 90 minutes driving home?
Can you get the same overpriced stuff closer to home?
A certain rodent has made a qualitative assertion. In order to judge the veracity of this assertion, I’d have to make it out there, or wait for shipping. Since I’d want to make use of it over this weekend, it’d be too late if I got it shipped.
The alternative is to just shrug and move on. This isn’t a high stakes question, just whether I should see if the solar smokery is all it’s claimed to be cracked up to be.
You can definitely get Oscar’s products closer to home.
Lakeside Cider Mill and Roma foods both carry them near me. I’ve never bothered looking in Albany, but I’d bet calling Oscar’s will let you know. The phone-answer guy was helpful when I was trying to get some stuff shipped.
That would require human interaction.
If you had your pistol permit, I’d mention that the area’s only Colt dealer is also in Warrensburg (speaking of overpriced).
So it’s not about driving gloves then?
Has anything been on ESPN today except the helmet fight? I’m looking forward to hearing Howie Long has to say. In high school against my town’s team he got in a brawl and ran around bashing players with a helmet.
I would imagine Howie Long was a seriously scary high school football player. Even when he wasn’t clubbing people with a helmet.
Yeah, and then he grew up and nuked Denver!… wait, that was a movie… but it could have happened! Foozball is de debil!
I LLOLed.
Oh, Remy. You’re The Master
Perfection.
I, um. I don’t get it.
So I try again, in vain, to make the argument that we created the ‘bad cartel guys’ by making drugs illegal. Feature, not bug. Look at all the overburdened court systems, the overcrowded prisons, the DEA, the extra cops just to enforce drug laws, the mandatory drug treatment centers, and throw in the cartels. You have one hell of a profitable chain of industry going on there. Does that really look accidental to anyone?
“You can’t end the war on drugs. There’s too much money in it.”
Self licking Ice-Cream Cones.
Should I make the 90 minute drive past lake george to visit a store with high prices and spend another 90 minutes driving home?
Which side of Lake George? It makes a difference.
Warrensburg. http://oscarsadksmokehouse.com
West/northwest
Has anything been on ESPN today except the helmet fight? I’m looking forward to hearing Howie Long has to say. In high school against my town’s team he got in a brawl and ran around bashing players with a helmet.
The structural racism of the NFL is what dunnit.
For all of the hand wringing over how terrible this assault was, the sports show are secretly loving it. I’m sure their ratings are going up over it so of course they’re going to milk it for what it’s worth.
Warrensburg.
Have it shipped.
*That link shows where their products can be purchased in Albany. Don’t tell UCS.
Resellers are going to have a smaller subset of products than the primary outlet.
I’m scared of the answer, but what is the sales tax in Warrenburg?
I’d also be super worried that the seller of any product bought there would show up later and want it back. Claim it was some cultural misunderstanding and they didn’t really mean I could have it forever.
LOL.
Claim it was some cultural misunderstanding and they didn’t really mean I could have it forever.
i only see a 1 in 1024 chance of that happening.
Speaking of that shitshow lst night- I think I turned it off in disgust when the refs made (what I thought was) a bullshit roughing the passer call.
It has occurred to me on various occasions that
a) I probably would have been ejected from nearly every game I played in college for helmet-to-helmet hits and/or “spearing” as well as roughing the passer
b) if roughing the passer is not going to be enforced in a consistent, predictable way, why not just unload on him? You might as well give him something to think about, while they’re marching off the penalty yards.
The NFL wants every play to look like this.
The National Flag Football League
The future of football is two hand touch.
That is ableist.
Not all Football players identify as two handed.
Cousins made a fake throw but the tackler only sees the arm motion as he is going in for the tackle and has to back off as if he continues and Cousins did throw the ball, 15 yards and an a first down.
I’m sure QB’s will get really good at using this forced passiveness to their advantage.
And some of the young scrambling QBs will try to run through those tackles – then slide. So the defense has no idea what to do except watch him run around doing as he pleases.
I dislike Mike Golic, but he got one thing right. He called the Carson Palmer rule “No hitting below the hemline.”
Bob is the superior Golic.
Just like all Bobs.
This!
That’s awesome.
The fact that Palmer’s knee was repaired using ligaments from a woman is even better.
Thanks for the free reading material!
Of course I am missing all of the really good articles lately. Whew…first time today I have had time to sit down.
This country, more than any other in the world, raises it’s children to solve their own problems. Elsewhere they raise their children to look to someone else to solve their problems. The US has created an avalanche of wealth and security while the rest of the world looks to us to keep them fed and protected. There is no way to overstate the importance of this.