Thirty-Something Rifle Cartridges I: The 33s
I find the thirty-threes to be some of the most useful of the thirty-something calibers for the North American game fields. Most of them are easily capable of taking the largest American big game. There is a wealth of projectiles available. Some of them, like Winchester’s excellent .338 Winchester Magnum, have been around for decades, and as a result there is a great deal of loading data available.
As a result, there are a lot of .33 caliber rounds out there to discuss. So, without further ado…
At the End of the Black-Powder Era…
As we saw back in the series on level guns, the famous John Browning/Winchester collaboration started with a big, tough lever gun called the Model 1886, which could handle some pretty heavy cartridges. In 1902 Winchester made this rifle available for a new cartridge, the first commercially available thirty-three, the smokeless-powder .33 WCF.
This was a pretty hot load for its time, launching a 200-grain cast bullet at 2,200 fps. With more modern, jacketed bullets, it quickly gained a reputation as a hard hitter, ideal for deer, elk and bear at ranges out to about 200 yards. Besides the Model 1886 Winchester, it was also available in the 1885 single-shot and the lever-action 1895 Marlin.
The .33 WCF was interesting because it came at a transitional moment in American shooting. As we’ve noted previously, the end of the Great War resulted in a lot of American shooters and hunters returning home with the memory of their issue 1903 Springfield and Pattern 17 Enfield bolt guns in mind, along with the powerful .30-06 round they fired. The lever gun was due to lose some popularity; the age of the bolt gun was dawning.
And the .33 WCF, while a groundbreaking round, was a rimmed lever-gun cartridge.
The .33 WCF was offered in the Model 1886 until 1935, when Winchester replaced the 1886 with the beefier Model 71 and its .348 Winchester cartridge. But this first of the thirty-threes had set the stage for some modern bolt-gun rounds to come, and one of those pioneering bolt-gun rounds came (in part) from the mind of someone we’ve discussed before: Elmer Keith.
The Mid-Century
Early in the 20th century Elmer Keith, along with his colleagues Charles O’Neil and Don Hopkins, developed a new .33 wildcat based on the .30-06 case necked up. The .333 OKH was intended to use the same .333 diameter bullets as the .333 Jeffries then popular in Britain, and while it delivered some good performance it was hampered by the lack of bullets, and since wildcatters live and die by the availability of suitable projectiles, this didn’t bode well for the .333. The logical evolution was to increase the bullet size to .338, resulting in the .338-06 wildcat.
This same trio also developed the .334 OKH, based on the .375 H&H case; this ended up being remarkably similar to the .340 Weatherby Magnum, about which we’ll talk in a moment.
In fact, the tale of the mid-twentieth century thirty-threes is somewhat convoluted, with plenty of wildcats and experiments mixed into the developments by major gun and ammo manufacturers. But one thing very quickly became apparent – launching a big, heavy projectile at significant velocity called for a magnum-sized case.
Precedent was already in place. During WW2 Roy Weatherby had introduced three standard (2 ½”) length cartridges based on the .375 H&H belted case, shortened and necked down. These three were the .257, .270 and 7mm Weatherby magnums, and they soon gained a following among those fond of high-velocity rounds.
In 1958, at the urging of Elmer Keith, Winchester took that precedent and applied it to Keith’s and others work with the medium bores. They followed Weatherby’s example, took the .375 H&H case, shortened it to fit standard-length actions, straightened the case walls a tad and necked it down to take a .338 pill.
The result of this was the great .338 Winchester Magnum, introduced along with the .264 Winchester Magnum and the .458 Winchester Magnum as a family of cartridges.
Now the American sportsman had a real world-beater. The big new medium-bore magnum put out a 225-grain projectile at 2,800 fps in factory loadings, and with the right slug would easily handle any North American big game, including big Alaskan grizzlies and moose.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that’s been paying attention that this round is a favorite of mine. My .338, Thunder Speaker, is built on a 1908 DWM large-ring Mauser action with a Douglas barrel and a Bell & Carlson stock. The .338, while delivering plenty of punch, does it on both ends, having a reputation for recoil as well as hitting power. Thunder Speaker, in addition to the big, wide recoil pad on that B&C stock, is Mag-Na-Ported and weighs almost ten pounds loaded, which makes it very manageable – at least for me. I’m large and not recoil-sensitive, so your mileage may vary.
My favorite load in that big, tough Mauser action is a 225-grain Barnes TTSX boat-tail over 67 grains of IMR 4350. This gives me about 2,800 fps for almost two tons of muzzle energy. This load will easily lengthwise an elk or moose, and that’s what Winchester intended the round should be able to do, so I’m pretty satisfied; in Thunder Speaker, with me at the wheel, it will also put three rounds into a 3” circle at 200 yards. The best shot I’ve ever made on a game animal was with this rifle; a fat meat mulie buck in the open sage country south of Parshall, Colorado. The buck paused to look back on the edge of an arroyo; I tossed my cap on a flat rock, laid down in the snow, laid my rifle on the rock, took aim and sent one round down the hill. The .338 slug hit the mulie at the base of the neck, dropping him in his tracks at 280 yards.
She still does kick, though. My son-in-law once got a case of Kaibab eye after asking to try out Thunder Speaker off the bench-rest; I warned him not to choke up on the scope!
The .338 Winchester Magnum was quickly a big commercial success. In addition to its introductory chambering in another shooting legend, the pre-64 Winchester Model 70, it was quickly picked up in the Remington and eventually, the Ruger, Savage and many other lines. Browning made it available in the BAR, making it the most powerful semi-auto rifle available at the time. Wildcatters quickly picked up on the usefulness of the case, bringing about among other things the .30-338 Magnum, which Winchester later legitimized as the .300 Winchester Magnum – bringing the standard-length magnum case back to America’s caliber.
But the competition was paying attention.
Only four years after Winchester brought out their thirty-three, Roy Weatherby upped the ante. His entry into the field was the .340 Weatherby Magnum, on the same magnum-length case as the .378 Weatherby Magnum. This was a real whopper, sending the same .338 225-grain slug forth at 3,100 fps. But the .340 Weatherby suffered from the same issues as the 8mm Remington Magnum we discussed in the last installment: It was limited to a magnum-length action. What’s more, it was a proprietary round. When the .340- Weatherby was introduced one could only have one in the Weatherby Mark V, with factory ammo initially only available from Weatherby. Even today, the only company loading this round besides Weatherby is A-Square, and the ammo is pricey.
The place of the thirty-three in the American shooting scene was now secure. But the explosion of rounds to come was to prove an embarrassment of riches.
Today
In the magnum world, the .338 Winchester Magnum and the .340 Weatherby Magnum have been joined by some new contenders. The .338 Ruger Compact Magnum came out in 2008, a 2,700fps thumper intended to be chambered in short-action rifles like the M77 Mk II Compact.
There are a couple of newer Weatherby-level steamrollers available as well. In 1989, A Norwegian/Finnish munitions company named NAMMO (Nordic Ammunition Company) saw a market for a powerful, long-range military sniper round; their answer was the .338 Lapua, which was adopted in civilian as well as military applications. The Lapua is a real rocker, sending out a 250-grain slug at over 3,000 fps.
In 2002 Remington responded with an expansion of their Ultra Magnum line, the .338 RUM (Remington Ultra Mag.) This fell a bit short of the .338 Lapua and produces very similar ballistics.
But both ultra-mag rounds have the same shortcomings: They both require magnum-length actions, and they both run at very high pressures, resulting in significant barrel wear at a much lower round count than the older .338s. Still, there’s still news in the non-magnum world.
2006 saw the introduction of the .338 Federal, which was simply the .308 Winchester case necked up to the .338. This introduction not only gave .33-caliber thumping to short-action bolt guns, but it also added a medium-bore alternative to the AR-10 platform that was becoming popular as the Tacticool craze accelerated. The Federal round yielded only modest performance compared to the magnums, propelling a 210-grain slug at about 2,600 fps. But the use of the .308 case made for a versatile round that punches well above its weight class.
Finally, in 2009, Marlin brought the thirty-threes full circle by introducing the .338 Marlin Express, a semi-rimmed lever-gun round intended to punch up the power level of that company’s 336-series rifles well above the original .30WCF level. In fact, at ranges up to about 200-250 yards, the Marlin Express round delivers performance in excess of most .30-06 loads, which makes the 336 rifles far more versatile on bigger, thicker-skinned game – and brings the lever-gun world back to the levels of punch known in the original 1886 Winchester.
The thirty-threes are many, powerful and versatile. The late 20th-early 21st century proliferation of .338-caliber rounds has been interesting, but none of them have quite managed to knock the good old .338 Winchester Magnum off the top of the heap.
In the next installment, we’ll examine a group of rifle cartridges that are a little lighter on the long-range magnum loudenboomers and a little heavier on the short-range woods rounds – so stay tuned for an in-depth look at the thirty-fives.
fun stuff
I noticed someone is building a 35 for the AR action. Full taper (meh) with a bigger slug than 223, ostensibly to fill both game and defense roles.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.350_Legend
Wilson is making an AR-10 upper for the .358 Winchester. More on that next week.
350 Legend
I’m not an AR guy, but it’s a fun project.
Thanks, Animal
My shoulder hurts just reading this!
My grampa gave us his .30-30 rifle that he used back when he was a professional poacher in Canada. Iron sights and it kicked like a mule. Dad and I tried to sight it in once and afterward decided that we’d never try that again.
Do you remember what kind of gun? I have my dad’s 30 Remington. That too kicks but I’m thinking its because I shoot left handed and its castoff for a right hander. Not so much of a kick but bumps me pretty good on the cheek bone. Not fun to shoot a lot, other than it belonged to my Dad
Not off the top of my head. I’d have to take a look at it next time I get up that way.
So for an east coaster who won’t be taking larger game at long ranges and wants to be able to actually practice with more than a few shots at the range before my shoulder screams – any recommendations?
I’m a NJ guy so my deer hunting has been restricted to buck and slug. At some point when I leave this awful state I’d like to pick up a rifle.
Check back next week for a discussion of the .35 Remington. You can find plenty of old Marlin 336s in this caliber, and that’s a hell of a good woods rifle.
Will do! Thanks.
.35 Rem was my whitetail / hog rifle in the Florida piney woods back in my yute. Looking forward to reading about the 35s next week.
You missed the season this year, but you can get a non resident hunting license for Pennsylvania if you want to try rifle hunting. My friends and I would be happy to take you.
As for deer rifle recommendations, .30-30 had probably killed more antlered rats than any other cartridge and is especially good if you’re hunting through brush, but if you are going in an area where the undergrowth isn’t as big if a deal .30-06 or .308 are perineal favorites that aren’t to baff with recoil and available in hundreds of different guns.
Which corner of PA are you in?
I currently reside in the Philadelphia suburbs, but grew up in northeastern Pennsylvania, a few miles south of the New York border, roughly halfway between Scranton and Binghamton. Hunting grounds are back north, in Susquehanna and Wayne counties.
I keep thinking about trying my hand at hunting, but I keep circling around the same questions.
Ticks (more specifically, Lyme Disease); A more experienced hand to help me figure out what the outdoors is; and getting the spoils back home without them spoiling.
Ticks aren’t as big of an issue during deer season in PA; they’re still around most years and it’s possible to pick them up, but Pennsylvania’s rifle buck season is late enough that they are less active or dead. There are basic precautions to take against them, and no one I know has managed to get lyme disease yet despite the amount of time they spend in the woods.
As for learning the land, we hunt in three ways, stand, stalk, and drive. In stand hunting you set up in a spot and wait to see if anything comes along. You’ll need to learn the land and deer habits to set one up in a good spot, but we’ve already built permanent stands so that’s not a problem. Stalking is exactly what it sounds like, finding tracks and markings and actively hunting down the deer. That requires a good amount of skill, knowledge of terrain, and practice moving silently through the woods, and definitely takes the most experience to pull off successfully but it is also the most rewarding. Drive hunting involves setting one ot two hunters up in a spot with a great view of the surrounding areas, and having a group of other hunters purposefully walk through the woods to try and flush out any deer and drive them towards the hunter on the vantage point. We usually do a drive for new hunters or anyone that hasn’t gotten a deer yet in any other way on the last days of the season to give them the best chance at filling their tags.
As for getting the spoils back before they spoil, standard procedure is to field dress the deer and then set up a rope rig to make it easier to haul back to camp. We’ll give you instructions, but you’ll have to do it yourself, though we’ll help carry the carcass back if the hike is long. Once you’ve got it back to camp, you’ve got two options. You can take it to a professional butcher and pay for them to take care of it, or you can donate at least half of the meat and they’ll butcher it for free and give you the remainder. The donated meat goes to homeless shelters, and you can keep whatever specific cuts you want.
I was going crosseyed looking at all the shorthand codes on the PA web site, but it all boils down to early december as far as I can tell.
Am I the only weirdo who wants to keep the hide too and get it tanned? If I’m not mistaken a full deer skin is close to the size needed for an apron.
Nope, the butcher will be happy to give you the hide back. Most people want it for taxidermy rather than leather, but most people keep it. There’s a local taxidermy guy that does leather work as well, he could make the apron for you.
There was one last question – How many days should be invested in a trip?
Aside from travel, I would say three days minimum, five if possible. If you’re still looking on day five, you’ll probably be past ready to call it quits.
If the meat is chilled a good cooler would keep it fresh from PA to Albany. I have mine butchered at the store, have venison sticks and breakfast sausage made besides the steaks, chops and ground meat. Not cheap but allows more time for hunting, plus a bang up job of wrapped, labeled meat.
Next time you visit I’ll have venison sticks.
Ticks and Lyme disease are over rated. I’ve had it, many locals have had it. A doctor’s visit, antibiotics and you’re good to go. Its mostly a spring time problem. I know there are some folks that develop complications but I think now with early diagnosis and treatment it’s gone in a few days.
This past summer we had few ticks, I picked off 3-4 only but I stay out of the woods from May-Sep. Last year I had 20-30 and 9 stuck but no Lyme problems.
My concern from Lyme comes from knowing people who’ve had complications.
That, and I just don’t like certain types of bugs. Bloodsuckers are up on that list.
Rifle season lasts two weeks, but you don’t want to stay that long. Best bet would be three days, Friday through Sunday. Most of us don’t take much time off so outside of the weekend you’d be stuck mostly by yourself. As for travel, it looks like it is about two and a half to three hours from Albany to where we hunt, you’d have no issues keeping the meat fresh with a standard cooler and some ice.
Sounds reasonable.
I should probably fish my .308 out of the hudson and get more time with it. It would be my best bet of what I’ve got.
I’ve got most of a year to talk you and myslf into/out of the idea.
@ UCS, don’t forget you’re going to need to take your hunter safety course and get a hunting license.
Well, yeah, the “non resident license” was mentioned, and I assumed it has prerequisites.
A more experienced hand to help me figure out what the outdoors is
You have a couple of options, one of which gets to the biggest barrier I have experienced with hunting: getting access to good hunting ground.
One way to solve the problem is to buddy up with a hunter who will let you tag along, but you probably already figured that one out. My first deer hunt was in southern Wisconsin, where finding deer isn’t a problem at all. My only real question was, how do I field dress a deer? I received instruction in a bar with a deer hunting buddy, who basically told me that, since I had experience fishing, I should gut it like a big, hairy trout.
Worked well enough, and I didn’t have to tag along with anyone – I shot the deer, a modest spike buck from my back porch. The four biggest whitetails I have ever seen in the wild I saw across the street in early fall. One of them was probably a near-record deer, period, full stop. I saw him one more time as light was failing during bow season – he was way out of my bow range, but well within my shotgun range. Guess where I hunted that gun season. Like I said, finding deer in the southern Wisconsin dairy country is not a problem.
The other option is a guided hunt, which is not cheap but will also solve your “where do I hunt?” problem.
Public lands are either massively overhunted, or very remote and difficult to get to, scout, etc. Getting access to private land is generally better, but comes down to either (a) friends of the family who have such land or (b) paying for access (generally a hunting “lease”).
Once your prey is on the ground, Caput pretty well covers it.
Lots of videos on You tube for field dressing but it doesn’t always work out so easily. A slight miscue and you have an odor surrounding you that is a little unusual, for most of us. I’ve dressed out a couple that were left overnight and the shooter had to go to work before recovery.
If there is a Deer Hunting Organization around, they may have ideas/options that would be helpful. I think most are rather close mouthed is the property is any good.
Potlatch Paper Co leases land out here but as they are mostly coniferous growers it isn’t always the most productive.
That reminds me, I need the right type of knife for that work. The stuff I have for everyday use isn’t it.
I use a folding single blade Buck. Always scrub it was soap and hot water and a stiff brush after use. Remove all the DNA. I had a facsimile (Uncle Josh?) that I gave to my grand daughter. Same quality.
It doesn’t take that much of a knife, really. I used Pater Dean’s https://www.buckknives.com/product/110-folding-hunter-knife/0110FAM01/ on my first few deer and it worked fine.
As a gift, I got a very nice fixed blade knife, probably a 5″ blade. It worked just fine also.
What you will really want is disposable gutting gloves.
I should note, my friends family owns roughly 100 acres of private forest. As their family business is lumber jacking, they have for several generations managed this particular spot of woods to be the most attractive place for a deer to be for a few hundred miles around; besides a poorly guarded corn field, anyway. You’d be hard pressed to find better white tail hunting grounds in the mid Atlantic.
Remove all the DNA.
We’re still talking about deer, right?
You’d be hard pressed to find better white tail hunting grounds in the mid Atlantic.
So, Caput, old buddy . . . .
The main reason I’m looking for a fixed-blade knife is cleaning. I don’t want to have to try to get the blood out of the mechanism.
Sensei and I were asking first, RC, unless he wants to host a gaggle of glibs…
This would do just fine, I think, especially for the price. They also make a version with a “guthook” (really, for “unzipping” the hide).
I’ve actually got decent hunting for mulies a short walk from the Casa Dean – about fifteen minutes to the National Park fence, and a few minutes later I am overlooking a good-sized draw heading down to some of the only open water for quite a ways. I just have to get off my lazy ass, get a tag, check the zero on the Deerminator, and . . . that’s about it. I’ll want some snake-proof gaiters, too, I suppose.
I’ll have to check the link at home, it’s a “Weapons” site and blocked from work.
Technically, I wouldn’t be hosting anyone since it isn’t my land, you’d have to suck up to my friend’s father. Standard bribe is a 30 pack of yuengling light lager, the old man is watching his waist. You bribe me to get access to a private fully stocked lake chock full of walleyes, perch, small and large mouthed bass, and crappies where you don’t need an outrageously overpriced non resident fishing license to fish at. My taste in beer is more expensive, but unlike my friend’s father, I share.
As the intermediary, I expected you to extract some sort of transaction fee.
Unciv, Caput’s invite is solid gold. If you are at all serious, take him up on it (after confirming he is serious). Getting access to good private land is extraordinarily difficult/expensive.
I’m aware of that, we also have the better part of the year to reach an agreement and see if he is serious.
Completely serious. New comers are always welcome with a recommendation. The beer was tongue in cheek, but an easy and cheap easy to ingratiate yourself. As long as you don’t break any safety rules, don’t anything stupid with a gun will see you promptly and with no small amount of physicality removed from the premises, and are fine taking some shit from curmudgeonly old men, you’ll be welcome. Considering your demeanor and the way you put up with us, I have no doubt you’ll fit in fine.
You Glibs better let old Timeloose know if your planning on such a trip. You will all pass by my casa on the way to the hunting grounds. I would treat you all to a beer at the very least.
You’re local Timeloose, you’re invited too.
In that case, lets go with “I intend to show up in the coming year if I’m not stupid and forget to get the paperwork done”.
At what size does a gaggle of guntoting Glibs become a rebellion?
When it’s not typical hunting game being shot at.
Thanks!
Having shot .30-06 as a kid it’s the one rifle calibre I have experience with. At the time I found the recoil quite manageable and I’m not a big guy.
Growing up at the seashore the large majority of my hunting has been duck and geese.
No problem. If you just want to try some different calibers out, we could set you up with anything from .204 Ruger to .375 H&H. We’ll just have to fish them out of a lake first, unfortunate boating accident last year.
You too?
Water is the firearm’s natural predator, it just seeks them out.
Very true. Damn my unfortunate habit of taking my entire gun collection on extended canoe trips.
I fired a 458 lott a few times once. It felt similar to a 12 gauge in terms of recoil. I had to lean forward and really plant the stock in my shoulder. I still almost felt like I would fall over backwards.
I live in NJ. A lot of my target shooting is just .22 lr from rifle or pistol. Can’t beat the economy and fun. My next rifle will be a 6.5mm Creedmoor. The price on ammo has come down – so it is now a good mix of very long-range accuracy and economy. And it will work just fine on anything I might hunt on the East Coast.
Turns out I enjoy the history of ammo more than I thought I would.
No doubt, a lot of that can be attributed to the author. Another great article!
Right? Almost zero chance of me owning any of these, but I find these articles fascinating.
Ditto! Also love the old packaging with the matte ink and the different fonts for the same thing on different side of the box (rustless on the Peters box). So much cleaner and pleasing to my eye. No copyright, trademark, etc symbols either that I can see.
Yeah, Animal knows what he’s about.
Very cool stuff indeed.
The biography of Remington is also fascinating, as is the history of the Krupp family and corporation.
Roy Marcot’s
The History of Remington Firearms: The History of One of the World’s Most Famous Gun Makers
Is the bio I mentioned. You can pick up a used copy at Amazon. My dad read it over and over after I gave him a copy for Fathers Day.
It’s a sort of vocabulary for some of us.
I leafed through a recent American Rifleman or whatever they call it now, and nothing has changed. My 1979 self could reel off the same Browning this and aught six that. The striker chat is new I suppose, but the rest has been working it’s way out of me like shrapnel for decades. I dream about Brno bolts I’ve never seen and remember ballistics on black powder legacy rounds. It’s a weird way to go through life.
^ This.
What was the Lapua based out of? The same H&H?
No, it’s not a belted case like the H&H; if memory serves, the parent case for the Lapua rounds was the .416 Rigby, but the Lapua developers had cases made with the Rigby’s external dimensions but with solid case heads and thicker brass for greater strength.
There’s also the .338 Norma now – a slightly shorter case than the Lapua. It was developed as a hunting round, but might bump the Lapua in military applications because it works better in MGs.
Always enjoy reading about the calibers that I’ll never own. The first Shooter’s Bible I had, circa 1952 had the ballistics tables, us kids memorized them. At the time the 220 Swift was the exotic one we longed for.
Great reading, Animal. Thanks
Who knew is Walter Williams gun-toting, knuckle-dragging, mouth-breathing, Trump-voting white-supremacist?
Since Democrats have seized control of Virginia’s General Assembly in the last election, they are likely to push hard for strict gun control laws.
Those laws will have zero impact on Virginia’s criminals and a heavy impact on Virginia’s law-abiding citizens who own, or intend to own, semi-automatic weapons for hunting or their protection. As a friend once explained to me, “I carry a gun because I can’t carry a cop.”
Heh. But you have a right to self-defense either way.
In an attempt to appease citizen resistance, Northam suggested there would be a ban on only the sales of semi-automatic rifles. He would allow gun owners to keep their current AR-15s and similar rifles as long as they registered them. Otherwise, they must surrender the rifles.
I’d urge Virginians not to fall for the registration trick. Knowing who owns what weapons is the first step to confiscation.
Northam further warned: “If we have constitutional laws on the books and law enforcement officers are not enforcing those laws on the books, then there are going to be consequences, but I’ll cross that bridge if and when we get to it.”
What you are proposing are laws that are exactly anti-constitutional. Read article 1, section 13, you wannabe tyrant.
Virginians must heed the words and capture the spirit of their two most distinguished citizens, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, who wrote the Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions. These resolutions referred to the federal government but are just as applicable to state governments in principle.
They said: “Resolved, That the several States composing the United States of America, are not united on the principle of unlimited submission to their General Government … and whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are unauthoritative, void, and of no force.”
Governor Black-face ought to tread lightly, and perhaps not at all.
I honestly never would have expected this whole thing a decade ago. Not that it would be VA and not that VA would try to do this.
I’m impressed that Virginians looked at what happened in other states with “reasonable” restrictions and saw the results and said “no”.
It’s not Virginians, it’s Fedgov employees who have moved into northern VA.
As much as you might want to blame it all on govvies – there are as many if not more non-employee hangers-on that feed [on] the beast.
If we have constitutional laws on the books
Pretty big “if”, Gov. Blackface.
Of course, with an honest and competent judiciary, the vast majority of gun control laws, especially those requiring any kind of licensing or registration, would be struck. Since we don’t have an honest and competent judiciary, though, at least some of what they are proposing will be deemed Constitutional by our Lords in Black.
Never mind the moral or constitutional questions, the latest Texas shooting shows the practical effect of loosening firearm restrictions perfectly.
Thanks for the article Animal!
Unrelated shooting question: does anyone have tips for how to fix anticipating the recoil with pistols?
I believe others (and I know I have) already posted, but ‘caps’ (i.e. a dummy round or empty casing) or having someone else load your revolver (with an occasional empty chamber or aforementioned dummy) will show you when you’re anticipating. The key is to simply squeeze slowly while maintaining the sight picture and sight alignment. You should almost be surprised when the gun goes off. Keep doing that: pull very slowly and just let the gun ” go off” in your hand. Maintain a firm grip, but don’t squeeze the blue out of it.
It’s like anything else, after a number of slow reps, you can start to be a little quicker on the trigger pull.
Thanks!
Agreed
Also fun: point and shoot instead of sighting at all. This gets the business and stress of sighting out of your head so you can focus on handling. You realize quickly that the recoil is a fraction of the deal you thought. Afterward recoil is less in mind as you work on sighting.
In addition to Ozymandis’ suggestions.
I use my .22LR pistol with people I’m teaching to shoot. I give them lot’s of range time with form and site alignment with a .22LR.
Even with myself I switch from my bigger pistol and back to .22LR when I start to anticipate.
I went the opposite. I learned mostly with my .44 magnum. I fear no recoil. I don’t much like semi-autos, though, they seem to fling parts all over the place when firing. Freaks me out.
My solution isn’t as universally applicable as the other Glibs. I have a lot of mass and a phlegmatic personality, so the recoil just isn’t strong enough to make me worry.
Try dry firing with a round balanced on the top of the front of your weapon, business end of the round up. Sans sighting, work on the round’s not falling off when the hammer falls.
…assumes this isn’t for a rim-fire pistol. In that case avoid dry firing.
Or use these.
Nice!
That’s a great idea!
Thanks for that!
This is the ‘dime-washer drill’ they teach in the military. Place a dime or washer balanced on a round part of the barrel and dry-fire the weapon without allowing the dime to drop.
It teaches trigger discipline. You have to squeeze smoothly and consistently to not drop the dime.
I used to be good enough with an M-16 that I could trigger the weapon and then recharge it without dropping it 10 times in a row.
Animal – these articles really are exceptional. Thank you.
He’s doing a bang up job.
He really puts the hammer down, right?
Let’s not be too quick on the trigger with our praise; there are still more articles to come.
(Meh, that’s kinda lame, but this is my first time playing in these)
I think we can be tinder in our reviews.
But then some of us will butt in with stock wordplay.
I’d like to clip these articles, maybe put them in a magazine.
Don’t be a skin-flint, leon
It’s semi-automatic for him.
Long range, I don’t think that’s a problem
Get a grip, Ozy, punning is clearly within the scope of your abilities, and if you keep working at it, this post could be just the tip of your pun iceberg.
That’s always my opening line… “just the tip…” 😮
How do you feel about the black thing going up?
Hopefully this will not be the last report we hear from him.
Probably addressed in the morning links, but Fredo’s brother is a hack’s hack.
Cuomo said, “We tend to treat these situations as isolated episodes, but really if we just connect the dots, we have a pattern of hate in this nation that is only getting worse. We’ve seen almost weekly attacks on people based on race, color, creed. It’s hate-motivated. Apparently, there was another shooting in Texas today in a church. We’ve seen attacks against African-Americans, Latinos, LGBTQ community. And let’s call it what it is and let government act because this can destroy this nation. It is corrosive. It’s an American cancer.”
He continued, “It starts at the top, and then it goes on to a point where it becomes viral across this nation. And it is now viral. And you see it coming to the surface in different manifestations from coast to coast. And we’re comforted treated it as isolated episodes, but there’s a pattern to all of this, and it spells hate.”
The overwhelming majority of crime against African Americans is committed by other African Americans. And I assume you do not mean you as governor at the top of the state.
Fredo’s brother…
Is it really fair to identify Chris Cuomo as Fredo if they’re both Fredo?
it becomes viral across this nation
Except the anti-Semitic attacks don’t seem to be “viral across the nation”. They seem to be fairly localized to places run by Democrats.
When all is said and done, the problem of anti-Semitism on the right is modest and fortunately shrinking. Because it’s seen rightly as a bar to respectability in conservative circles. In contrast, it’s less modest and growing on the left, as we’re seeing in New York City and the surrounding suburbs. Because anti-Semitism is increasingly not seen as a barrier to respectability on the left. You see it in the continued respect the left and their media allies afford anti-Semites like Rashida Tlaib or Ilhan Omar. Or the continuing good press they give Al Sharpton. The left will wave it off as “anti-Zionism” or just pretend it didn’t happen.
+1 Jermy Corbyn
-59 Labour Seats
*psst* it was -60 Labour seats.
Governors are at the Top of their state?
Well, if we could isolate them to the highest peak available, it would be an improvement.
You’ve been elected! Congratulations. Now we’ll drive you off to the Governors Mansion….
:3 Hour drive into the boonies:
: Kick him out:
Have fun!
Preferably above 8000 meters with no oxygen tanks.
No, he means Trump and his shock troops.
Top =/= Swamp
We tend to treat these situations as isolated episodes, but really if we just connect the dots, we have a pattern of hate in this nation that is only getting worse.
Maybe you should worry more about the pattern of hate in New York, since you seem to have a pretty bad case of “throw the Jew down the well” there.
In another article (from 1992) that the NYT probably wishes it hadn’t run Louis Gates had some interesting things to say about rising anti-semitism.
Frankly if I was the NYT, I’d burn the morgue down because it keeps regurgitating things that make today’s stories even more ridiculous.
As the African-American philosopher Cornel West has insisted, attention to black anti-Semitism is crucial, however discomfiting, in no small part because the moral credibility of our struggle against racism hangs in the balance. . .
There’s something there, but i can’t quite put my finger on it….
Oh wait thats right. If you treat other people as collectives, don’t be surprised when you start worrying about collective “credibility”
@Ozy, do I owe you an email? Not at my desk, but I seem to remember that I do.
I’m not sure. I’m doing some admin and catch up as I’m now back home and back working, but I’ll get back to you in day or so after I buy up my 10-pack of ISBNs. Sorry we couldn’t put together an impromptu Glib-Up in KC, but we were on a tight schedule with relatives and visiting. Did get in one trip to Oak Park Mall to look for a suit for a 1920’s theme NY’s Eve party the Missus and I are attending tomorrow night. I’m going full Tommy Shelby… by order of the Peaky Fu#%ing Blinders!
Okay, as long as I know the ball’s in your court, then I’m not stressing.
Oak Park Mall is the last indoor mall in the metro. Did it look half dead?
I wanted to throw a 1930s party for the release of my Prohibition book, but that was not to be. Have fun!
The opposite; it was quite busy. Mrs. Ozy is from that neck of the woods and was commenting on it.
Good to know. I’m not close to it (I’m way at the other corner of the metro, in Liberty), so I never go. If I want to shop high-end (which I have been able to in the past), I go to Crown Center or the Plaza.
Try dry firing with a round balanced on the top of the front of your weapon, business end of the round up. Sans sighting, work on the round’s not falling off when the hammer falls.
Interesting. I sometimes find myself not so much flinching, but allowing the muzzle to droop as i squeeze the trigger. Dry firing while focused on the muzzle, to try to make myself more aware, seems to help.
I do the same, dropping the muzzle in anticipation. There’s never a shortage of bad habits.
OT: good luck Philly
https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2019/12/portland-police-chief-danielle-outlaw-accepts-job-as-philadelphia-police-commissioner.html
Chief Outlaw?
Well, they’re fucked.
Antifa Philadelphia is excited about it though
Philly has been fucked for a long time.
“Party time in Philly – let’s go!”
/Antifa
I think it’s the opposite. She’s gotten flack for wanting to enforce the law against Antifa the same as with the Proud Boys. It’s Mayor Wheeler and the no-shit commie fascists like Eudaly and Hardesty that want to go easy on them. At least that’s my read of it.
Philadelphians pride themselves on bar fights and property destruction. Antifa has caused some ruckus here but it has been pretty minimal, and they’ve also been prosecuted when they did it. They might cause some problems in university city, but if they leave the campuses they’ll be very sorry, very quickly.
She didn’t last long.
My take is that the mayor and council though they were hiring a fellow-traveller that would run the police in accordance with their ideas about letting Antifa run wild, the homeless run even wilder and otherwise go along with the program didn’t pan out and she got frustrated. Not surprised she’s leaving.
There’s no doubt the anti-police element is a big problem (still amazing that Wheeler was the adult back when he in the county commission; the guy is completely spineless now), Outlaw was her own problem though. She’s incompetent and inexperienced but interviews well, so she’ll continue to fail upward. PPB has systemic issues, which weren’t fixed and she’s added to by increasing the bureaucracy. Until Portlanders start expecting competent government rather than supporting the wackos (which is never), they’ll continue to get this good and hard.
In contrast, it’s less modest and growing on the left, as we’re seeing in New York City and the surrounding suburbs. Because anti-Semitism is increasingly not seen as a barrier to respectability on the left. You see it in the continued respect the left and their media allies afford anti-Semites like Rashida Tlaib or Ilhan Omar. Or the continuing good press they give Al Sharpton. The left will wave it off as “anti-Zionism” or just pretend it didn’t happen.
Let’s not forget the progressives’ outrage at the institutional misogyny of Orthodox Jewish social norms (sex-segregated swim clubs, for example).
Let’s not forget the progressives’ outrage at
the institutional misogyny of Orthodox Jewishsocial norms(sex-segregated swim clubs, for example).Maybe you should worry more about the pattern of hate in New York, since you seem to have a pretty bad case of “throw the Jew down the well” there.
Guns come from Indiana, hate comes from Washington, DC. The people in those places are powerless to resist. Get with the program.
I once met a Hoosier Gun Farmer. Seemed like a nice down to earth guy. Said that you could always tell when a good crop of AK’s were coming in by the smell of well oiled metal in the air in the cool spring morning.
That smell of cosmoline wafting through the fields…
Mmmm, those amber waves of brass..
What does cosmoline smell like?
Cosmoline smells like rifles. Rifles smell like freedom.
I’ve got my dad’s Savage .30-30. Yeah, it’s got a bit of a kick.
I think it’s the opposite. She’s gotten flack for wanting to enforce the law against Antifa the same as with the Proud Boys. It’s Mayor Wheeler and the no-shit commie fascists like Eudaly and Hardesty that want to go easy on them. At least that’s my read of it.
Was she part of that thing where the cops/sheriff were being accused of “co-ordinating” with the Proud Boys?
That was Portland, wasn’t it? It’s so hard to keep all this stuff straight.
Coordinating = not picking them up on sight for a “paddy wagon ride”?
Paddy wagon always makes me think of a McDonalds Chuck Wagon.
Indirectly, yes. The officer designated to be a liaison w/ both was actually being a liaison and was one of her cops. There were also multiple times where she wanted to use the tactics used in the latest go round to keep things to a minimum and was rebuffed. There’s also been several shootings of mentally ill folks, which were (and I’m pretty anti-cop) legit shoots, that outraged the community. Or the vocal parts of it.
Add in the local boys and girls in blue viewed her as an interloper diversity hire cause she’s a black woman from Oakland (California: hissss) at the beginning but were coming around to liking her. Frankly, it’s a smart move on her part. She used PDX to leverage herself into the big time.
I’m thinking about getting a Concealed Carry Permit, despite not actually owning a weapon. Is it worth it to get the Arizona Permit (works fine in Utah) or should i just get one from my state?
I think you have to be an Arizona resident to get the Arizona permit, but I’m not sure. I courtesied in with my TX permit.
I tried to get my AZ concealed carry and… I was basically told to… just carry. I know they passed ‘Constitutional Carry’ last year and it seems to have entirely destroyed the need for the bureaucratic red tape. I was about halfway through the process – or what I thought was the process – and the police (of all people) told me I didn’t need to when I was getting my fingerprints done. Maybe I was misinformed, but the people here who run that process seem to have abandoned the entire charade.
*shrugs, tucks pistol into belt*
Missouri is Constitutional Carry. I would never bother with a permit now, although I would avail myself of all classes possible.
That is, if I had a gun, but I won’t have one until my son is grown and out on his own.
Pennsylvania has constitutional open carry, except in cities of the first class, aka philly. But the permit is so easy to get you might as well pick one up even if you never carry concealed. Go to the sheriff’s office and fill out a one page form with two contacts on it one of which can’t be related to you, pay $25, wait a few weeks until it comes in the mail. Or download the form and mail it in with payment. No classes, no fingerprints, and it is shall issue so they have to give it to you unless you fail the background check. After that renew every 5 years for $20 by sending back a postcard that is mailed to you asking if you want to renew.
You’ll get your paperwork processed faster if you submit it to a sheriff that is pro gun, but since you don’t have to use the sheriff of the county you live in just mail the application to a rural county.
@caput
“wait a few weeks until it comes in the mail. ”
I think this varies by county. Both Bedford and Blair County just hand you the permit after they print it. It was a 5 minute wait.
I thought AZ had Constitutional Carry when I moved here; I recall not needing to get a permit to carry then (six years ago). The reason I applied for my license in AZ is to get reciprocity with (some) other states. Since I drive to TX and NM periodically, I wanted reciprocity.
So the license still has value. I just renewed. No idea if they have abandoned processing new licenses. If they have, they shouldn’t have.
I’m thinking about getting a Concealed Carry Permit, despite not actually owning a weapon. Is it worth it to get the Arizona Permit (works fine in Utah) or should i just get one from my state?
I was under the impression lots of people prefer the Utah permit, because it has wide reciprocity.
Meaning- non-Utah-residents get a Utah carry permit. There are places in Bozeman which have Utah permit classes.
I’ve taken CCW classes in two states. There’s a classroom portion, and a shooting portion (oy, most people can’t shoot a handgun for shit). You’ll need a gun to get the permit.
I just re-upped for the Minne permit. Classroom, shooting test and another application (and fee) for the Sheriff. I actually really enjoyed the class. The teacher was excellent and was a hard-ass when it came to the shooting test. Two-hand, one-hand, re-load, three distances, the works. It was fun and I passed. The dude teaches some advanced classes that I’m gonna check out.
He was waaaaay better than my first instructor.
Hmm. I was checking USCCA and it made it look like it was not as good as Arizona, but now i looked deeper and it’s because Utah provides a “Provisional” one to those who are 18-20 and so the other states don’t recognize those ones.
That makes the decision easier.
I’d make sure to get my first permit from my state of residence (unless you’re in NY or such). You have any interactions with a UT cop as a resident trying to use an out of state license, and there’s a good chance of getting hassled even if your 100% legal.
Yeah, IIRC, their are often classes for the Utah permit way over here in Eastern NoDak because of what Brooks said.
Peppermint cheesecake in the oven and the topping made and in the refrigerator. Candy canes are smashed.
A rolling pin is, in fact, a lethal weapon, and I propose that the UK adopt common-sense rolling pin control.
I used a meat pounder for my candy canes (candy cane ice cream) – it worked a treat.
I have come to realize that buying mini candy-canes works far better than the full-sized ones, since you can just cut the ends off the wrappers in bulk after you smash them – it took forever to peel all the wrapping off the full-sized ones.
I have this but I had to use my rolling pin to crush the Oreos because my stupid-ass blender wouldn’t. So I already had it out.
Meat pounder was my nickname in college.
Wait…
Didn’t leave the dorm very often?
UCS, if the weather is right, you won’t have to worry about your venison spoiling. In fact, if the weather is cold enough the deer will freeze and you can have a kickass Christmas card.
Those were some mulies my dad and his buddies shot one year when it was super cold. They had hung the deer from the back legs off of a swing set the rancher had in his yard. Because I don’t want to dox any of those monsters, I won’t show you the pics of them sitting on top of them like they were riding them.
I confess, I chuckled at the picture.
Apropos of nothing, I am crying-laughing at this
That. Is. Awesome.
So that church shooting is a story<a href="https://twitter.com/planefag/status/1211545220099301376" title=" good guys with guns” target=”_blank” > good guys with guns.
Daggumit!
The antigun crowd pictures a scene that resembles a cross between the unloading scene in Predator and the assume crash positions scene from Airplane. The armed people in that church saved a lot of lives.
The good guys with guns never happens. Go play your role playing games in your basements you incels
They were specially trained. Ordinary gun owners wouldn’t be able to do that. We have a political cop here to explain that.
So the Steel Challenge was eye-opening for me.
I never got to spend much time free-plinking as a kid, and never with handguns. The overwhelming amount of my trigger time was in an organized setting with CMP .22s. I was always a fairly crap shot.
Fast forward a couple of decades, and I start taking handgunning a bit more seriously, and I am scoring vastly better in NRA pistol qualifications than I ever did with a rifle. I picked up a 10/22 to see if it was just a I had grown up” thing, but no, I still pretty much sucked with a rifle, whereas doing these pistol competitions I was almost ok. I put a few hundred rounds through the rifle, several thousand through the pistol.
But, pistol on pistol things and rifle on rifle things is not actually relatable to doing rifle v. pistol on the SAME Thing.
I wanted to be in the iron sights division, so I took the scope off the 10/22 (which I and needed to see the damn bullseye on the NRA smallbore targets) but with the rail I had perma-mounted on the barrel, I couldn’t actually get a sight picture.
So I did the Steel Challenge with my uber-tacticool $1100 CZ Shadow 2 and my $300 Ruger 10/22 with no usable sights. And the 10/22 had a handful of failures to go into battery. and of course, I still shot faster with it than my beloved CZ. Assuming the manual timer work was accurate (it was too quiet for the automatic shot timer) I placed three places higher in the rankings with the 10/22 than with my pistol. And the weird thing is I really felt I was struggling with the carbine the whole time.
The rail is of course mounted on the receiver, not the barrel.
I find rifle and pistol to be very different disciplines. Pistol is more instinct/”flow” and my small martial arts training really seems to apply. Rifle is more analytical/methodical, which I like to think I am naturally, but I am a mediocre rifle shot and a natural pistol shot.
Pater Dean is the opposite – can’t shoot a pistol, but is an excellent rifle shot (probably from spending summers as a child roaming New Mexico with a .22).
That’s how I was thinking of myself (though pistol requires bad biomechanics compared to martial arts). But that’s only because I was holding performance to different standards.
The timer doesn’t lie (I think). Of course, that was just one time, we’ll see how I do going forward. And if I add an AR-9 to the mix for fun.
It’s funny you should say that about your martial arts experience being helpful with pistols. My head sensei Paul Mills used to be a quickdraw champ. Yes, it’s been 20 years, but I still feel like part of the American Kenpo community and Mr. Mills still my sensei.
In fact, the higher black belts in Ed Parker’s American Kenpo shift into gunfu. That dude did not mess around.
My aikido sensei’s sensei (Japanese guy, seriously senior in aikido circles, name slips my mind) told us ages ago that if he had to fight, he’d use a gun.
Great article as usual Animal, thanks for writing it up. I confess to being a whimp when it comes to recoil so I don’t own any 33’s. About 20 years ago I won a 338 Win Mag in a raffle, sold it and bought a 300 WSM, and put a muzzle break on it.
Animal- you kinda slid right past .338-06. Thoughts on that?
I probably should have mentioned it in conjunction with the .333 OKH, as they are essentially the same round; the OKH used an oddball .333 bullet for which there weren’t many options, so wildcatters responded by using a .338 bullet, for which American manufacturers produced many more options. Thus, the .338-06.
Another fine article Animal!
If I may, the .338-06 is to the .338 Winchester Magnum as the .30-06 is to the .300 Winchester Magnum. They each do almost what big brother does, but with much less recoil, report, and expense.
I fall into the camp of less gun is more unless you’re after dangerous game or in their proximity and even (especially?) then shot placement matters. Most people just shoot better, and kill more game cleanly, with non-magnums. I’ve shot numerous deer with standard American cartridges (.270 Winchester, .30-06, .30-30, etc). Nearly all have dropped within 50 yards of being shot. The only exceptions were those I made a bad shot, and no, a bigger gun wouldn’t have made any difference…