And now, for your reading pleasure, the next installment of the debate competition for the ages! Vote for the winner here.
Question as asked:
Given the existence of a nation-state and some form of Western representative government (think bicameral, parliamentary or some variation thereof), is multiculturalism or assimilationism preferable for the health of the nation and its people?
Expansion: What “preferable” means will largely be left up to the debater to establish. It could mean material prosperity, stability, personal or cultural identity; just argue convincingly to your point.
Multiculturalism – numerous populations from disparate cultures living alongside one another within the nation while retaining much of their cultural distinctiveness. The proverbial “salad bowl”. Assimilationism – numerous populations from disparate cultures shedding or deemphasizing most of their cultural distinctiveness to adapt to the prevailing “majority culture”. The proverbial “melting pot”.
Biff defends multiculturalism, Ozy defends assimilationism.
Biff:
America has been multicultural since its inception. The very idea of freedom of speech, freedom of religious practice, and freedom of association are all foundational components of the United States, and all clearly support the idea of a multicultural nation. The cultural practices of colonial Georgians differed widely from colonial Virginians, much less the residents of the New England colonies. Concepts of individual liberty and freedom require multiculturalism. Demanding that all citizens adhere to a limited set of cultural ideas is the exact opposite of the type of freedom the United States sought (and still attempts, though often poorly) to provide its citizenry.
Think of your favorite style of food – French, Italian, Thai, Indian. Now imagine how bland life would be if you could only ever get one of those. Multiculturalism means you can walk down the street and pick up a set of tacos on one corner and sushi at the next. No matter how much you like burgers and fries, after a while it gets boring. Variety is the spice of life.
Multiculturalism means you get to celebrate (or just as importantly NOT celebrate) Diwali, or Yom Kippur, or Christmas, or Ivana Kupula, on any other Holiday you wish. It means (((They))) can get Chinese food and go to the movies on December 24th and 25th every year. It means you can even celebrate a made up Holiday like Kwanza (and really, aren’t they all made up?).
Many have claimed Multiculturalism has its drawbacks – clashing ideas from different cultures have been the root of many conflicts over history, but it’s not multiculturalism’s fault – quite the opposite. True multiculturalism has an ingrained respect for other cultures where supremacy of one culture over another isn’t needed. It also demonstrates a true faith in your own culture in that your support of your own culture (born into or adopted) is sufficient that it can withstand differing opinions, viewpoints and traditions without feeling the need to suppress them or attempt to ban them outright. Much like the closely related theory of free speech, the best response to objectionable cultural practices is exposure to alternate viewpoints and practices.
Assimilation is for Star Trek villains – or for Bernie fans trying to streamline deodorant options.
Ozymandias:
Multiculturalism is an ideology doomed to failure because it is by its very nature antithetical to the concepts that undergird a nation-state. In short: the ‘salad bowl’ riposte to the ‘melting pot’ analogy ignores the fact that both need a container of some kind, be it ‘a bowl’ or ‘a pot.’ In either case, that vessel constitutes the extant culture into which the ingredients must be mixed and without which you merely have a mess of ingredients on the floor.
To quote a Glib regarding language: “meanings have words” – and not the other way around, as it is commonly expressed. The same idea applies in the context of the nation-state. Nations don’t get created and then decide to pick and choose which cultures they’ll let in: nation-states are the byproduct of an extant culture. Through most of history those cultures that rose to sufficient heights or grew to sufficient size were almost always tied to an ethnicity and/or a dominant religion and a particular patch of dirt on the Earth.
It was the United States that changed this conception with the creation of a nation-state steeped in Enlightenment ideas, founded explicitly against the notion of the European, ethnocentric model, to wit: France is where French people live; Italy is for Italians and Spain is for Spanish peoples, etc. The U.S. was founded by various European cultures, each in enclaves sufficient to allow them to grow, up against the pressures of raw nature with an indigenous culture, in which the “melting pot” concept could begin to take hold. Ideas such as rugged individualism inhered in the very nature of the undertaking to come to the New Land and “find one’s fortune.’ The ‘pot’ of the melting pot was already cast before the U.S. was even a political entity.
By contrast, the evidence of the failed experiment of multiculturalism is everywhere in Europe. This is because the idea that immigrant culture can be imported, yet retain all of its own antecedents, misses the mark for a host of reasons, all related to the “bowl” into which these new cultures must be poured.
1. Cultures – i.e. collections of relatively homogenous groups of human beings – are deeply influenced by their environment, including weather, mountains, plains, desert, etc. We seem to have lost touch with this simple, ineluctable fact of life, especially in urban centers, where food magically appears, now that only 2-3% of our population help feed the other 97%.
2. Cultures always, always, include ways of solving disputes; there are objectively – measurably – better ways to resolve disputes. In Afghanistan, for example, honor culture demands the killing of the eldest son in response to certain offenses. This is decidedly NOT a good way of resolving disputes if we place any value on human life. Courts are a better way, for just one example.
3. No culture can expect to survive, to maintain the “pot” or “bowl,” if the ingredients themselves are allowed to alter the bowl, or destroy it at their whim.
4. In a bowl with different ingredients, the radishes shouldn’t get to enslave the avocado because that’s what ‘radish’ culture demands.
5. The US explicitly chose assimilation, even with people with a very similar common heritage, namely, Mormons. Statehood was explicitly conditioned upon giving up bigamy. One may argue about whether that specific choice was necessary, but the fact is that the US made historical choices to preserve the distinct characteristics of culture over the “salad” approach.
None of this even begins to address issues such as language, which includes means of commerce and currency that must be fairly constant for the nation-state to survive. The ascendancy of American English as the lingua franca for the world is not a historical birthright. It is a result of deserved U.S. cultural ascendancy across a range of important areas of human relations, from international aviation, to computers, commerce, science and other technology, including medicine, and on and on. If those gains in civilization mean anything, they certainly indicate the need to preserve the underlying character of the culture that produced those gains.
Vote!
I will ponder who to vote for while enjoying a glass of wine, but at first glance Biff smells of “that is not real multiculturalism” which I am not convinced. food and music and Lebanese women are nice and all, but culture is much more as Oz says, and the main requirement is that some very foundational things are mutually agreed upon, e.g rights justice respect for others.
I do not see the US as a multicultural endeavour but as a melting pot. There was plenty of conflict between english, irish, germans, italians, protestants and catholics when it was multicultural.
That being said, the second argument seems a bit above the recommended length. You trying to squeeze in an extra paragraph on us?
All and all I find this debate more interesting then the one I took part in.
#metoo
For the US I would say the minimum shared foundation should be everyone respects the constitution but… about that…
I assume the difference in arguments is down to how narrowly one defines culture. I am gonna stop now and let others chime in.
Is the keyboard broken for you people?
No. My brain is.
I recommend wine.
I do not drink. This is for religious reasons; however, with my taste buds, I must assume I wouldn’t like it anyway.
well I’m all out of ideas. See this is why I could never join your religion (not that anyone offered 🙂 )
What? You never see a couple of Mormon guys from the US in white shirts and black slacks trying to proselytize on the streets of Bucharest? My dad almost rented an apartment to them in Russia.
*sends missionaries to Pie’s home*
I have not met a Mormon yet in Bucharest though I think there are some. I met a jehovas witness or two.
I met a Mormon girl in Florence when I was visiting with a few friends and we shared a hostel. She joined us for a trip to Sienna which I found weird at the time, going with 4 Romanian guys she did not know. Weirder still she was wearing flip flops, which Romanians don’t usually do on the city streets and which I find uncomfortable for long walking, but that may have been more an Orange County thing than a Mormon thing.
American thing.
I only wear Birkenstocks, except to church (flats) and DIYing (steel-toed boots). I don’t run, so I wouldn’t run in them, but the last time I wore tennis shoes to walk (as in actual deliberate exercise) (yuck), they tore my feet apart within 3/4 mile.
Birkenstock after my googling seem more comfortable than simple flip flops with a thin sole
A guy I went to high school with who’s Mormon went to Mongolia for his bit. I have a sneaking suspicion he got that gig because he’s Filipino and they were like, “Eh, close enough.” Anyway, he said the first two words he learned when he got there were the words for “bathroom” and for “to die by burning”. Seems like a high-pressure posting, but he came back alive so I guess he figured it out.
We had a Mongolian girl in our area for a while. Cutest accent ever. She was assigned to the Liberty Jail. They put the cute ones out front in the PR positions.
Birks were solely responsible for curing my plantar fasciitis. I was resistant because they are so ugly AND so expensive. I was doing everything I could to stay out of Birks. They were my last resort.
It was a rough week at first, with that brutal arch support, but that was years and years ago and I haven’t looked back.
Thanks to mojo, today I learned where Kirtland, OH is.
Tres, when I was growing up, any Ohio city or town we hadn’t heard of was assumed to be “up near Cleveland” and thus not worthy of further notice.
Aside to Moje: Birks were “solely” responsible…? ; )
???
For this, perhaps a nice Belgian wheat beer with a Scotch chaser… to accompany a nice spicy dish of Pud Thai, followed by Kanafeh for dessert, accompanied by a Riesling. Then Cuban coffee on the deck out back, accompanied by a shot of Sambuca. Oh, and maybe a little Sushi for an appetizer, should you require one.
That’s American culture these days, after all.
Belgian beer is bad and wheat beer is bad so Belgian wheat beer is double plus bad.
You have horrible opinions and should seek help.
Show us where Belgium touched you…
I have nothing against Belgium, but they are known for beer and chocolate and you can et better of both in other places.
Swiss chocolate is better…but the only beer better than the Belgies make is a few select American, German and UK varieties.
For me for light uncomplicated drinking I like Czech beer. Otherwise I go for US/UK style ales. I find German beer overrated. And to generalize, Belgian to sweet and alcoholic. But I rarely want to drink beer above 7%, so there’s that.
“For me for light uncomplicated drinking I like Czech beer.”
Score one for Pie. But German kolsch works too.
“But I rarely want to drink beer above 7%, so there’s that.”
That would wipe out a lot of Belgian beers from your list. Try to find a grisette.
That’s American culture these days, after all.
That’s a menu, not a culture.
Fine. You can go out salsa dancing, paint russian dolls at a little paint n’ wine place, have a cuban cigar with your dominican rum while you listen to a korean boy band. We literally have access to anything you can imagine. And there is not one single thing wrong with that.
I’ll refer back to Paul Simon and Ladysmith Black Mombazo. He was accused of cultural appropriation and worse for playing with the South African vocal group. They very quickly disabused everyone of that notion. Playing with a big American artist got them a lot of notoriety worldwide, made them a metric crap-ton of money and pushed their message about apartheid to a whole new audience.
No, I’m interviewing candidates for job openings.
make one of them cry for shits and giggles
I can’t do that. It’s also part of my own effort to be seen as suited for promotion.
Look who wants to be a petty tyrant. A small czar is you will.
Burble.
Culture cannot be appropriated. It can only be emulated.
The only “cultural appropriation” I know of is when people come steal unique artifacts from your nation… looking at you, British Museum.
The Egyptians should have invented better booby traps for their tombs.
They were there, but Yakub stole them.
Does it make it better or worse that most of the stuff in the British Museum was taken from what was British territory at the time?
Worse. We stole your country AND things in it.
Does it help if the Brits took good care of the artifacts, as opposed to what would have happened if they had stayed in their craphole of origin?
That is on the individuals who would do bad things to objects.
“We had to nick your land and everything in it, Mustapha, because you are savages.” just clangs wrong in the ear.
Better that statues be broken up as feedstock for cement (the fate of many Greek and Roman statues) than shipped overseas for safekeeping? Not sure about that.
Would it help if the Brits bought them fair and square from their (apparent) owners? Because its my recollection that at least some of their collection was bought (the Greek statuary?).
Some, of course, was seized as loot (I’m thinking of the looting of the Winter Palace during the opium wars in China).
Are multiculturalism and pluralism the same thing?
I would say no.
I considered that multiculturalism involves the artificially forced interaction of different cultures, whereas pluralism is ostensibly the endgame of multiculturalism, but cannot ever really be achieved by cynical, nannying multiculturalist policy.
I still maintain that you guys are doing this wrong. The only proper way to decide such things is for both combatants to post selfies wearing thongs. The winner is decided on criteria of being properly Thicc. I learned this from the Daily Mail.
Oooh, this is a good one.
I think I’d argue that what a lot of people think of as “multiculturalism” is really just a single culture changing to adopt aspects of other cultures. It’s the incorporation of external influences into the dominant culture rather than the resignation of that culture’s primacy in order to accommodate a competing culture. We see this in food culture all the time. Italy is famous for pasta, which is itself an Asian (I believe specifically Chinese, but I wouldn’t swear to it) contribution. It lives elsewhere, too. American business culture has adopted Japanese business practices. But to go back to the pasta example, I think the evidence that you can’t really have multiculturalism in the wild is shown by the way in which Italian culture incorporated Asian noodles and made them something distinctively Italian. In a similar way, you see Mexican cuisine taking Spanish influences and making them distinctively Mexican, which filters into Tex-Mex and changes further, becoming something distinct from Mexican culture despite sharing common elements and being influenced by it.
I’ve always been bothered by people shitting on American culture as being either meaningless (because of the plethora of influences from outside) or worthless (because it’s “consumerist”). American culture is a perfect example of a “borrower” culture. Far from being xenophobic, we browse through the various cultures we encounter and grab the things we like while avoiding the things we don’t, and then we change them to suit our tastes and needs. Compare that to the French, who go out of their way to maintain a “pure” French culture. American culture’s propensity to incorporate new things that work and adapt them as needed is a huge strength. It mirrors the unique quality of American identity being based on a subscription to a set of beliefs rather than having a genetic ancestry tied to a particular geography or language.
But culture is not just pasta. it is killing your daughter for not wanting to marry her cousin in Pakistan.
Napier had something to say about that:
As Naptown said, we take what we like and leave the rest. We may or may not wholly reinvent what we like.
That’s what I’m getting at. Culture is many things, not one thing. That distinction seems to be a problem for a lot of people, particularly people who say things like “appropriation” and who believe that if you want the kebab you’ve got to take the honor killings as well.
As a Romanian we had plenty kebab
For the record, I’m pro-kebab, but anti-public stoning.
Consider English.
Usually, the conqueror’s language wins out in the end, the vanquished’s language being spoken only amongst the poor/not-connected, and then loses ground and gradually fades until it’s dead.
Not English. Oh no. I don’t really understand why the vanquished’s language killed the conqueror’s (French), but it ruthlessly uses other languages like it always belonged to English.
HM, can you explain to me why this happened?
The Hundreds Year War. To gin support for the war Henry might have propogandized that the english language was being assaulted by the french.
To be fair though almost 29% of Modern English has French roots so… It’s not like English escaped unscathed
A lot of them are duplicates too. For example, the word for livestock is usually the older english term, while the word for the meat from the animal is typically french.
This shows who was feeding the pig and who was eating it. It demonstrates something telling about government.
Okay, good point re Hundred Years War and I should have thought of that, considering what time period I’m writing in.
However, I don’t see English as being assaulted by French. I see English as having chosen to use X many French words and discarded the rest. So to me, English said, “I’m taking this 29% of your language to use as my own. 71% of French is worthless to me, so all the rest of y’all can go suck eggs.”
I’ve heard some linguests argue that Modern English is a creole of french and Old English, but the argument isn’t very convincing. By the time of Henry V, they were into early Middle English anyway.
HM will have a better grip here but I suspect that it’s because the royals were French and of an entirely different social class and valued the distinction, but as English identity became more concrete and more important identifying with the English became desirable even in the upper classes, particularly when the wars became less about which French-speaking person owned which parts of France and England and more about which English monarch took exception to French monarchs claiming that English territory across the Channel was actually French.
In related news, Duolingo now has Scottish Gaelic. It’s rough around the edges and I sound like I’m coughing up a hairball, but I’m doing my bit to keep it alive.
Tangentially, I did not know Scottish Gaelic was also a written language before I started researching.
Also, Henry V was the first monarch to communicate exclusively in English.
Also also, up until well into the 20th Century, Brits assumed that others knew French. Authors (particularly mystery authors) would write whole paragraphs in French without translating them, assuming that the British reader would understand.
I’ve got to say the hardest part for me so far has been reading it. It does the same thing English does where some words or some combinations of letters just get pronounced differently sometimes because of the rules that someone made up for no reason at all. I’ve given up trying to discover some sort of hard and fast set of patterns for pronunciation and just accepted that in a lot of instances letters mean what they mean on a case by case basis.
So, no actual rules about noun/verb stresses, e.g.,
CONtract/conTRACT
COMbine/comBINE
PROject/proJECT
Well it’s early yet, but those seem to be relatively consistent. You do see stuff like “agus” sometimes pronounced “AH-yoos”, “AH-yus” or “AH-gus” seemingly based on either the speaker’s preference or some rules I don’t know yet, and “-eadh” sometimes sounding like “eee” and sometimes like “ee-eh”, for instance. The biggest shocker was that “an” sounds like “ahn”, and “ann” sounds like “a-own” with a very slight “nyuh” at the end. And there seem to be several combinations of letters that will produce the same sound, which is sometimes nothing at all like the typical sound you’d expect coming from English, German, or a Romance language. “Mhath” is pronounced” va”, for instance; “charaid” is like “chadditch”.
Take all this with a grain of salt, of course. I’m basing this off of a couple of weeks with Duolingo.
English borrowed A LOT from French, including much (most?) of its vocablulary.
Not so much. Less than a third.
That is because French was the language of the courts and law: tort, voir dire, etc etc etc.
Italian is the language of music.
Russian is the language of gloom and despair.
I would direct you to read anything by David Crystal. Part of it is that since the Norman Conquest, English has always been a pidgin language. From middle English on, it’s been a creole of German, Danish, French, Latin, and Greek. So what’s the big deal about adding a little Spanish, Chinese, or Arabic now and then?
I mean, look at who speaks Old English.
Amerika.
I may have agreed with you 15 years ago. Now I see enclaves of Somalis in Maine and Minnesota – and it isn’t like Little Italy where they are (barely) tolerated for a generation while they assimilate. Instead, us Americans are brow-beaten into accepting their crappy culture as just as good as our own and any complaint that they aren’t assimilating is seen as racist. The same can be said for the huge numbers of people moving in from Latin America.
To me, that’s an example of why multiculturalism isn’t actually a thing. Teaching a cat to fetch or teaching a dog to use a litter box does not mean you’ve created a cat-dog hybrid.
I think I’d argue that what a lot of people think of as “multiculturalism” is really just a single culture changing to adopt aspects of other cultures.
That would be nice. But I think this:
the resignation of that culture’s primacy in order to accommodate a competing culture
is more what is meant in practice.
And why is it that the first thing everybody mentions when praising multiculturalism is food? Food is not culture. It is, at best, a minuscule part of culture. You can eat damn near anything from anywhere in the world, and not be affected one whit by the culture of that place. To take your example, Italian culture was not changed one whit by the introduction of Asian noodles.
The tunnel vision on food wouldn’t be so annoying, if the people praising multiculturalism could list any other benefit of it off the top of their heads.
if you want the kebab you’ve got to take the honor killings as well.
You don’t, praise Allah, which is just another way of pointing out that food is only distantly related to culture.
I am not sure it would work length wise, but to be a true debate there should also be counter arguments.
Like opening counter closing is ideal. I would read it all, am not sure about others.
I think Pie just volunteered to run the Debate Series.
Couple of what?
I’m at work, so I’ll try to read & comment and/or vote later, but I wanted to compliment Q on the illustrations.
Yes, I appreciate Q’s choices of breastesses today. Not sure on the owl one, though.
Clearly those are Swiss Owls.
Or rather, Swiss Hooters.
Hooters, dammit. Never mind. I told you my brain was broken.
At least you got it, I only registered the milk and assumed it was a play on Homogenized. I didn’t even notice the theme until your post. I should start drinking.
On the last debate I had passively aggressively bitched about the skin in the post. Or maybe not so passively aggressively. I did bitch, though.
ANYWAY, I was amused and touched to see this.
I didn’t get it till you posted now. Very clever.
#metoo but I have an excuse
You shouldn’t let Q touch you.
He was wearing gloves.
Dammit, that’s where they went.
You need to date a more hygienic class of women if you need gloves to touch them.
Dating? No, they’re just people-touching gloves.
I recommend a nice cup of Lady Grey and Bushmills.
Tits, boobies, hooters, jugs.
Good job keeping it clean Q, the rest of us can scroll through safely at work.
stop dissecting frogs
I just like birds (see previous mention of bird feeder outside my office window) and dairy products.
Not just any tits, those are Great Tits.
While neither addressed the question at hand very well (they seemed more interested in what America is as opposed to what any Nation-state should be) I’d say Ozy at least touched upon it even if I disagree with his logic in places, Thus as debate rules go I guess he won.
Wrong again. Biff won. Hands down. You Ozyites get me so upset.
Biff is a Tulpae and a line cutter, if you want to white knight for someone of such low character be my guest.
I got a crossword puzzle for you:
Hint: Something that you are
W
A E
O
N
G
Oh, dang it, it did not send the way I had written it. Making crosswords is hard.
Try making an acrostic. It’s almost all horizontal. And cool as all get-out!
That’s for the suggestion, but I have a hard time with all the rhyme.
What a crime! You’re in your prime! I bet a dime – you try the climb, and it’s sublime. (I left out “mime.”)
The mime was silent.
Q, sincerely—thanks for the pix. I do appreciate it. Also, very clever. ❤️❤️❤️
Do we not pick and choose, on an individual basis, aspects of culture that we enjoy? There is a , say, gun culture, that crosses all geographical, political lines. Some of the things we ascribe to culture is learned behavior that we discard as we move out into the rest of the world. When we hear the words “I don’t like _______” we may be saying “I’m not familiar with that ’cause I’ve never been exposed to it.
I vote for both these arguments. The individual’s choice to pick and choose is inherent to freedom.
That’s a good point. I’d go so far as to say that there is no such thing as multiculturalism, but there are cultures with commonalities, and there are cultures that overlap and exist on different levels. So, for instance, there’s British culture, say, which is a set of common practices, beliefs, and traditions. At a level below that there are national cultures such as Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish, Manx, etc. Below that there are regional cultures: highland, border counties, etc. And so on and so on. Along with those, there are cultures related to activities–here’s the gun culture you mentioned–and maybe even ideologies–here again might be gun culture, in some senses, but also religions, political beliefs, etc.. There are multiple cultures existing together, and any individual might be a part of any number of them, but they’re discrete cultures within their contexts that exist concurrently.
The individual’s choice to pick and choose is inherent to freedom. – as long as that does not infringe the rights of others.
this generally goes without saying for libertarians, but not for most.
I cry FOWL! Biff is represented by the blue footed booby and Ozzy gets the wise owl. You’re trying to subconsciously color our opinion of the authors!
Also pandering to Ted with the gratuitous milk shot.
Ted does milk shots? I hope he at least adds Kahlua or Irish Cream.
For all the crap UCS takes around here, it grinds my gears we let Ted rail against carbonation and nary a word is whispered.
It’s because of his bubbly personality.
Boobies v owls?
I know which I prefer. (Hint: not owls)
OT. this Tangerine Dream seems a bit monotonous but could grow on you
They definitely went through distinct periods. My preference is pretty much the range covered by the In Search of Hades boxed set. Ricochet, Stratosfear, Encore, and Force Majeure are my personal favorites.
They were the prototype for ‘Berlin School’ electronic music, which still sequences on to this day.
If you like guitar, and find T Dream at least a bit interesting, try Michael Rother’s solo albums (Flammende Herzen and Katzenmusik in particular.
The spacier side of things is perhaps best represented by the vastly prolific Klaus Schulze.
I’m recusing myself from voting, as i think i have to debate one of the winners. It’s an interesting argument. I’m swayed by the decentralized manner of “multiculturalism”, there’s no monoculture which. However that implies that culture itself is being directed by the Nation State. I think this is why Yokeltarians will bristle at the “Cosmos” because they one side sees state enforcing and attempting to direct cultural shifts, while the other sees the shifts as occurring spontaneously. On the flip side “Cosmos” my bristle at people not wanting to deal with another culture as some form of “racisim” or cultural supremacy, when yokels may see it as just simple people wanting to do what they do.
where do Yokeltarians and “Cosmos” stand on kidnapping a virgin and sacrificing her to Cthulhu ?
Hey Man. Whatever your culture is, it’s your culture.
Too late…
OT: a sad day for Ted S.
What is wrong with “Panini’s”? Isn’t that just a contraction for Panini’s Store? I don’t know what Panini’s is maybe I’m wrong.
Yeah, “Panini’s” seems correct. Unless, “Panini” is not a name, but a reference to the food they serve, in which case it should just say “Paninis” if they just mean multiple “panini”
Panino, singular. Panini, plural.
/pedant
I bet you think “di” is the singular of “dice”, when we all know the singular is “dice” and the plural is “diceses”
Just ask Mr Jinks.
Thanks, TOG, now I have to learn what a panino is? A bread eating boy, a boy eating bread? This grammar stuff is tough
Its sad that Ted S’ support for apostrophes has fallen on deaf ears.
This describes a lot of my students. They KNOW there should be an apostrophe somewhere in that sentence but it becomes a kind of autonomous punctuation mark.
Old man yells at clouds for 18 years; normals lose interest.
Maybe I misunderstood, but is the “cosmo” position suppose to be Biff defending pluralism, while the “yokel” is Ozy proposing forced integration? That seems backwards.
“Multiculturalism” usually occurs towards the end of an empire.
Good call in 1976 there John Glubb.
I could list a bunch of counter examples but it won’t matter much since we have no defined point that says ‘That is multicultural’ and “that is Homogeneous”.
Exactly. This is a factious argument, because we are to believe that the US has only recently become multicultural which would be a surprise for early 20th century America to hear.
By that definition, about 98% of the Roman republic and empire was the “towards the end of an empire” period. 100% of the Egyptian empire was “toward the end of an empire” period. 105% of the US existance, too. Alexander Hamilton complained about all them furin burn furiners before the nation was even founded.
“Alexander Hamilton complained about all them furin burn furiners before the nation was even founded.”
Bite your tongue. We live in the era of “Hamilton is my bae”. Do you even musical, brah?
Browski, I will never give up on two things in life:
1) Smashin Silver Bullets with my brows on arm day and
2) Talking about how Hamilton hated immigrants.
Autocorrect don’t know about bros, I guess.
During most of the Republic, Rome was the size of Rhode Island and fairly homogeneous. I would compare and contrast the 390 BC invasion of Rome with the 410 AD invasion. The “Romans” of those two eras reacted very differently.
There were no Romans left in 410 AD.
And yet, the public men of the day were still bitching about the Italian influences on their pure Roman culture…
+1 Social War
So close….
I know, I know. I had to restart my wifi adapter on my stupid work desktop. I should’ve refreshed first.
The Social Wars would beg to differ
That was the beggining of the end for the Republic. Things went downhill very quickly afterwards.
*Although I think the real problem was the Republic wasn’t designed to be scaled up like that rather than differences in Italian cultures. And the wealth – power became too profitable – same problem.we have.
Then I misunderstood. So you mark the beginning of the end of the Roman Republic as very early on- even before they had solidified control over the Italian peninsula.
Sure – In 90 BC Rome dominated the Med and their Italian “allies”. That war was the first act of the Sulla / Marius drama – after which the institutions of the Republic were steadily eroded until it become a permanent dictatorship.
Homogenity is relative. I doubt a contemporary Roman would say he had much in common with a Samnite. Secondly, if we go by the most conservative reckoning, real Roman expansionism began with the Pyrrhic Wars in 280 BC. So, yes, for most the Republican era Rome was fairly small in the same way 60% is more than 40%.
Alexander Hamilton complained about all them furin burn furiners before the nation was even founded.
So he’s an example of successful assimilation to American culture.
Hmm…it seems my comments are going into moderation, or the abyss, or something. Am I being canceled?
Yeah never mind…I just had an embarrassing technical difficulty.
It’s the boomer purge of 2020. You’re the test case.
*shakes fist at cloud*
*remembers he Gen X and says “meh”*
That’s why you’re the test case, so as not to spook the boomers.
Tangentially related to nation-states, Ruskie flags with animals:
https://twitter.com/fabrice_deprez/status/1148559330310049792
Honestly, I was expecting more celebration of the right to bear arms on these flags.
This is a tough question, because when our country was growing considerably, the government wasn’t so hell-bent on picking and choosing which cultures we’d want to import from by setting quotas or creating perverse incentives. We accepted everyone but created no safety net that enticed those who were coming for freebies rather than opportunities and have had no reason to assimilate in order to find employment/provide for their families.
That said, during that time of limited government interference most people strove to assimilate outwardly (learning English and speaking it outside the home) while maintaining their culture inwardly (speaking their native tongue at home/cooking their native dishes). The combination of the two are what fueled the expansion of our country’s economic development and cultural enrichment. I don’t think we’d have grown to have such a diverse population with a strong unified national identity if one of those things had happened without the other. I’m not sure that will last though, as there is a lot of deliberate polarization going on right now from those who seek to create multiculturalism for multiculturalism’s sake as well as those who want to keep people from certain parts of the world out regardless of their likelihood to accept and embrace individual liberty or contribute to society without getting handouts.
the government wasn’t so hell-bent on picking and choosing which cultures we’d want to import from by setting quotas or creating perverse incentives.
Having said that, most people coming here at that time were Europeans, which many believe (wrongly, IMO) to share a common heritage. Or they were Asians who were given almost no opportunities and were forced to create subcultures and cloistered societies away from work.
Common enough? Almost exclusively some form of Christian with at least some appreciation for western civilization, and a willingness to assimilate.
You really think there was even a concept of “western civilization” in the 19th and early 20th centuries? Those people fought constantly over cultural differences. And religious differences, for that matter.
“Western civilization” is largely a concept of the second half of the 20th century forward.
That’s stupid sloopy.
*Goes and checks*
Good point sloopy.
Seriously, I thought that this was wrong, but its not.
https://youtu.be/boO4RowROiw
The worst religious spats in the West were inter-Christian conflicts. Blaine Laws still stand as a testament to the failure of integration against the success of multiculturalism.
which many believe (wrongly, IMO) to share a common heritage – for me it was this in common: secular law and non tribal organizations.
An issue with some Muslims is they don’t make a difference between law and religion, and cannot accept laws of countries they go to. Romanians going to the US could respect local law while keeping their religion. Because they were different.
Islam is as much a system of government as it is a religion. It’s hard to split the two. And it isn’t split in any Muslim-majority country.
Turkey was the exception to that rule and to some extent sort of still is. And while Albania and Kosovo may not be majority Muslim they do have sizeable majorities.
The criticism of Islam being both a religion and system of government was also leveled against past Christian denominations in the US, such as Mormons and Catholics.
Azerbaijan as far as I know also has attempted a split
Azerbaijan is officially secular. You could thank the Soviets for that, but then you’d have to explain why the Chechens reverted to literal barbary while the Azerbaijanis have remained quite secular and enjoy a relatively stable government and a high level of economic development.
Chechens reverted to literal barbary
That’s future NATO ally the Chechens
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Azerbaijan a “republic” of the Soviet Union and that’s why they were allowed to go their own separate way, whereas the Chechens were never granted “republic” status under the Soviet Union and that’s why they are fighting to separate from Russia because they were never granted the opportunity?
After the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Chechen-Ingush ASSR was split into two parts: the Republic of Ingushetia and the Chechen Republic. The latter proclaimed the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria, which sought independence. Following the First Chechen War with Russia, Chechnya gained de facto independence as the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. Russian federal control was restored during the Second Chechen War. Since then there has been a systematic reconstruction and rebuilding process, though sporadic fighting continues to take place in the mountains and southern regions into 2019.[16][17][18][19][20][21]
From Wikipeida. Not sure why Ruissia kept them but let the other ones go.
This reddit thread indicates it was because Chechnya wasn’t an Independent republic in the USSR, but an Autonomous republic in Russia.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3zr6mc/when_the_ussr_was_breaking_up_why_did_russia_put/
Well that is bizarre. I had always thought that it was that the Chechens were never offered the opportunity to leave the USSR.
But, it leads me to believe that the conflict there is more about nationalism with religion being an ancillary component to the conflict.
I said that first!
Islam is only one out of the three major elements of the Chechen culture. The other two are their “mountain culture” and Russian/Soviet secularism. Their “mountain culture” is rather strong.
That’s a fair point.
Speaking of government interference, there wasn’t formal support or requirements to offer government services in whatever language people prefer to speak either. If you want to do something (which was also much less intrusive), you’d need to use English for the most part.
My personal preference is for assimilation with multicultural characteristics. Euro style forced assimilation (where it hasn’t collapsed into separate but somewhat equal) is as repellant as the every culture is equal so no judgments multicultarism.
I would say Biff won by default in that Oz attempted to argue through a fallacy of equivocation, hoping we wouldn’t notice. (It’s not his fault. Lawyers are trained to do that.) Oz begins with the premise that multiculturalism is inherently flawed because it runs counter to the notion of the nation-state, that is a political entity defined by a geographic area populated by individuals of common ethnic ancestry . (Descended from the Latin natio “birth”) Later in the argument, Oz claims that the United States was a nation-state founded counter to European ethnocentric concepts. There are two problems here. The more important problem is that he now uses “nation-state” in a different sense, as the usual vernacular shorthand for “sovereign government”. This is equivocation, not even inclusive of the fact that we have other terms for the type of non-ethnic based nation the Founders envisioned. The United States was founded on the ideals of civic republicanism, also called classical republicanism and civic nationalism. In particular, while the Romans had their expectations of mos maiorum in daily life, we’re also talking about a civilization that would pray to the gods of their enemies during war time in hopes of cutting a better deal and chugged along quite nicely for at least 1,000 years with two official languages. (Though in the provinces, magistrates often did business in local languages as well.) A nation-state is, by definition, different from a federation or confederation, as well as a multinational empire. To point to the failures of multiculturalism in the post-Romantic era European context as support the claim that it is doomed to failure universally, particularly in the North American context is not valid, and, again, equivocation.
Less importantly, Oz also mixed up his timeline, in that at the time of the founding of the United States, most of Europe was organized around multi-ethnic, multi-religious realms in which Kings with German accents ruled over England and the Netherlands just threw out their kings with Spanish accents. The time of Romantic Nationalism that Oz refers to is a product of the 19th century which was a localist reaction to the perception that groups should be governed by rulers who share the same culture, religion, and ethnicity as the populace. In addition to the Roman example, if we look at say, the Anglo-Saxon rule of the British Isle, or the Chinese Empire/Republic (with 5,000 years of almost 60 ethnic groups and one gazillion languages within one polity), or the Ottoman mutliconfessionalism that continues to influence the national politics of Lebanon, Bosnia, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, etc., or the Austro-Hungarian Empire, or the USSR/Russian Federation, etc., etc. ad nauseam, one could make a strong argument that European ethnic nationalism is not the natural way of things, but an aberration that is bounded by a particular geographic, demographic, and historical context. As such, it bears a lot less weight on a discussion of the merits of multiculturalism or cultural pluralism than is often acknowledged by internet comment board chatterers.
On the other hand, Oz has nice hair and teeth, so I think he’s right.
I agree with Leap.
I have to be a contrarian.
Where’s the “Throw them both to the lions” option on this poll?
*hoots, slaps chest, and scratches groin in recognition of his now elevated social position*
*Pinches Leap and the runs away hollering to other juvenile friends*
Fair enough.
“The time of Romantic Nationalism that Oz refers to is a product of the 19th century which was a localist reaction to the perception that groups should be governed by rulers who share the same culture, religion, and ethnicity as the populace.”
For a localist reaction in the 19th Century they sure did have quite a few liberal thinkers rallying to the cause of “nationalism” in the late 18th Century and beyond. The French Revolution and the July Monarchy (which even stylized itself as “The King of the French” rather than the previous “King of France” title preferred by the ancien regime), along with the revolutions of 1848 all rode on a wave of “nationalism” to implement liberal reforms.
I agree with you. I would argue that at the time, liberalism and localism had shared interests – in that the liberal nationalists were hoping to found the next Dutch Republic or USA. Also, the multinational empires of the time were identified with autocracy (think Nick I and III’s Russia).
I agree. The Hapsburgs did nothing wrong.
Sure they did – cousin fucking.
You envy that jaw line. Admit it
One issue is both nation state and multiculturalism are not clearly defined for the purpose of the debate.
While I do agree there is some muddling of the terms in the Oz argument, I am still unconvinced by Biff tying individual freedom to multiculturalism… Because culture can mean to much for that
I have no idea what you just said. Not a clue. It’s a lot of big words, though.
I assumed he said that you claim US was a nation state founded on different principles than older nation state, but in fact the US is not a nation state by earlier definitions of a nation state but a different beast 🙂
Kinda. From my reading of the argument Oz uses the term “nation-state” in two senses. The syllogism Oz constructed is:
p1: “Multiculturalism is an ideology doomed to failure because it is by its very nature antithetical to the concepts that undergird a nation-state.”
p2: The United States is a nation-state
c: Multiculturalism is doomed to failure in the US as it is antithetical to the country’s founding concepts
It is a valid argument but it isn’t sound because by using, to Oz’s own admission, nation-state in two different senses in each premise, it’s the fallacy of equivocation. Contra Oz, if the US wasn’t founded on ethnocentric principles, then it is not correct to call a nation-state. In both technical and everyday language we have more accurate terms for what the US is (i.e., federation, confederation, civic republic, etc.). The political boundaries of the United States do not match up with its cultural boundaries. If they were, Ohio would not be 1 state. As such, even if we accept the first premise as true (which I do), it is still spurious to any discussion of multiculturalism vis-à-vis to the United States.
Everyone, capisce?
more importantly, belgian wheat beer sucks amiright?
I have never wanted to boo someone more than you right now. You leave the Belgians out of this.
And, speaking of “nation-states” and Belgium, Farrage has thoughts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPxrGDIbrUU
Depend on whether or not it was fermented/aged with brett, lacto, and pedio.
Could you be more specific? I’m happy to clarify anything.
HM – I think I see the thrust of your argument, but I don’t think it properly grasps mine. Mine isn’t dependent upon a hairsplitting reading of the definition of nation state. We didn’t get a definition in the debate topic so I just used what I consider the common understanding of a nation state: an internationally recognized modern political entity consisting of a sovereign with some system of government claiming to represent some distinct group of people. Saudi Arabia counts and so does all of the UN membership, let’s say. Regardless of the definition, the point is that the model prior to the US had never been on a selective individual basis. “When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them…” That was new shit at the time – as in, previously untried, with a tip o’ the cap and a nod to the Greeks. The Founding Fathers repudiated their status as Englishmen, of their ethnicity and statehood as British to declare themselves this new creature, anus.
But even they were building on centuries of English Common Law and a court system, and Enlightenment notions, and yes, some Christian notions, as well, about the sacred and partly Divine Nature of Man that makes us all equal, etc. In other words, the notion I challenge is the ‘multiculturalist’ notion that we need to remain as separate cultural entities and retain all of our distinct cultural characteristics. Here, let me be blunt: You don’t get to practice clitorectomies in the US. Sorry. And if you want to say that circumcision is the same thing, we can have that debate, too. I’ll use stoning of women who get raped or are out without a male guardian, as a better example. And I know of a lot worse examples if they’re needed.
Again, the United States didn’t just pick white former Euro-people. The white former Euro-people created the US and that was an extant cultural identity that had been forming and culminated in the Revolution. People should come immigrate here – and have, incidentally – for that promise, of being the light on a hill. I know my Afghan interpreters didn’t come here to bring more Afghanistan with them. I promise you of that.
I think that’s the best proof of my point, not quibbling over the minutiae of what the definition of a nation state is.
LOLOLOL. “This new creature – anus” was “Homo Americanus.”
Beautiful.
STEVE SMITH IS ANUS CREATURE!
I appreciate your response, but we will have to agree to disagree about the definition of “nation-state” as I, in good faith, don’t view it as minimal. I view it as the central point. As you pointed out, the US was founded as a republic with a different notion than European nation-states. And I agree that the colonists of the United States inherited a mostly British culture (with significant globs of Dutch and French) that serves as the baseboard.
I have more to write but I have a meeting in 15. (TBC)
Thank you. I’ll check back. And to put a fine point on it, the very notion of a nation state is embedded with cultural norms that are generally western and can be traced to the growth of the political climate in western europe, with bits of influence from all of the various incursions over time, but we can start with the Magna Carta in 1215 and work our way forward. Those ideals clashed with – and indeed wiped out Native culture, which didn’t include western notions of property, for example. Or maybe I could simply point out that the US being here instead of the natives is all the proof needed of the sometimes fatal clashes between cultures. We don’t want to be the people on the Reservations being run by Islam – how’s that for being blunt? At least I don’t. Sorry – I’ve spent a good bit of time in Muslim majority countries; great places to visit – glad my daughters weren’t born and raised there. I would rather we not have honor killings and all of those other savage propensities of some other cultures. It took us long enough to get rid of buying and selling humans, I prefer not to go backwards. But people are welcome to bring cool new foods, fashions, clothes, perfumes, spices, but not laws, and behaviors that violate the NAP.
When do we get the results of Pie V. LJ?
When one of them shows up at another debate carrying the scalp of the other.
I won apparently. Q mentioned it but I do not remember when.
You haven’t been given our topic yet have you? Just making sure it didn’t go to spam.
nope
I could have predicted that. The guy I vote for never wins.
you vote in an irrational fashion
Harsh, but fair words.
Get rid of the Nation-state and then it doesn’t matter what cultures exist inside a geographic area. With no central power source to fight over, there is no reason for there to be strife between differing peoples.
Have you… have you met people before?
Do you also believe that stone age tribes didn’t slaughter each other or continue to do so to this day?
Heirarchy is an emergant property of human intraction. So are societies and in-groups, which are oft prone to do violence on outgroups.
The nation-state is meerly an extension of these concepts, and likely never to be done away with.
As I noted above, the nation-state isn’t the only form of social organization known to man. A confederation or federation with strong local powers and weak federal powers meets Lachowsky’s definition.
What would Taleb say? Hes on a localist binge right now, but I think he was Libertarian at federal, republican at state and democratic at city level.
I’m guessing Taleb would say something like “Fuck you. You are stupid. Kiss my ass. #SITG.”
You won’t be so dismissive when Lebanon becomes Switzerland in the East
Well, for what it’s worth, I hope it does. I would love to experience a return of the Riviera of the Levant.
Ski in the morning, hang out on the beach in the afternoon!
+1 Danny Thomas
I agree. The Hapsburg-led Holy Roman Empire did nothing wrong.
You’re being silly. I’m not advocating for the multinational realm over the nation-state. If anything I want to zoom in, not out. I prefer we move from the nation-state to the city-state, or, better yet, the person-state.
I am just trolling. But, to an extent, the Holy Roman Empire was extremely decentralized with its numerous “free cities” and “free knights” and all the other complicated arrangements that made-up a quasi empire. And the central authorities had little actual abilities to impose their will on other parts of their dominion without support from other subsidiary realms.
Next you’ll tell me it was neither holy nor Roman too!
I’d settle for Family-State. I’m a fan of the patriarchy and I’m a dude.
You may be a Distributist
Yeah, but that’s usually the extended family. And then you’d have to protect your layabout cousin from being eaten by wolves.
protect your layabout cousin from being eaten by wolves.-
What’s the system of government that celebrates my propensity for violence? I’m game.
If he gets eaten, how will he complain? If any one misses him, I’ll just redistribute some of his stuff to them and then they’ll like me. Though if he was a layabout, it’s unlikely that would be the case.
And the slippery-slope to the nation-state begins.
I think you can think of the nation-state as one of many efforts to reduce conflict, or at least limit conflict. That seems to have been the point of the Treaty of Westphalia which is considered in undergraduated political science classes circa the early 2000s to be the beginning of the nation-state as we know it and ultimately the international order we see today. Obviously it didn’t end war, but it established the terms of the debate so to speak.
Obviously it didn’t end war…
By far the most destructive wars in human history happened in the 20th century under the rule of nation states. Perhaps the founders of the first nation states thought they would reduce conflict by forming them, but it obviously hasn’t worked out that way.
Destructive by what measure? Even in absolute numbers, leaving aside percentages, there were previous wars killing 20th century numbers throughout history
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll
Or genocides
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dzungar_genocide
I would note that all those deaths were caused by powerful governments killing other people. whether classified as a kingdom, empire, or nation-state, they all have that in common.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindandao_incident
Well, the nation-states were there before the 20th century. What changed was the technology. The smokeless cartridge enabled higher rates of fire and made automatic weapons feasible, which gets you trench warfare, and so on and so forth.
Stone age tribes didn’t kill one another in near the proportions of modern nation states. That said, just because there is no nation-state doesn’t mean there is no hierarchy. There are plenty of other ways for humans to organize and defend themselves that don’t involve the nation state, as HM mentions below.
Stone age tribes didn’t kill one another in near the proportions of modern nation states. – really not sure about that
Ukranians from the early 30’s disagree.
“That’s why we need to fight the Neanderthals in the Ukraine, instead of having to fight them here”
The famous last words of Ugga Mugga, leader of the Sacred Spear Cro-Magnon band
I would assume we are talking long term averages
The stone age victims of genocide at Nataruk don’t.
The fact that there are Ukrainians left alive to disagree means they are likely incorrect. If you are talking raw numbers the 20th century will be on top due to the massive population expansion from the industrial revolution. Percentages of a population? Probably not. Obviously with stone age wars you are dealing with limited records, but the Aztecs seem to have eliminated a number of competitors. In more modern times, the Thirty Years war and the Taiping rebellion had death tolls in the millions out of populations a fraction the size of their modern counterparts.
“Thirty Years war and the Taiping rebellion had death tolls in the millions out of populations a fraction the size of their modern counterparts.”
Wouldn’t that bolster Lach’s point? China was a fairly modern state by the time of the Taiping rebellion (in terms of the precepts of the Treaty of Westphalia)?
I was disputing his point that modern wars have been bloodier not joining into the nation state discussion. In part because I think the distinction being drawn misses the point and I do not want to write a thesis. In brief:
If by a nation state you mean the specific European concept emergent from the treaty of Westphalia, then you can certainly critique it’s stability as a political unit based on history. BUT I think that is cheating. The concept being discussed is whether a homogeneous polity is more stable than a heterogeneous polity. None of the Nation States mentioned were truly homogeneous.
I think HM was getting at something similar above (although he is more anarchistic than I am) a truly homogeneous polity would actually be a smaller polity.
TL:DR Liechtenstein fits my definition of a Nation State, Germany, Russia, France, Italy, Britain etc. do not.
Yeah, but what I was saying is you don’t view the 30 years war or the Taiping Rebellion as “modern war”?
Not really, no.
I would agree with all of those except France. Germany, Russia, Italy, etc. are all federations as opposed to unitary states and, as one example, they happened to have a (relatively) lot of Jews because they were more amenable to them settling there. One can quibble about the composition of France, but it is a matter of fact that it is a unitary state and had always, at least, aspired to be the nation-state of the Gaulish people.
The French may see themselves that way but I’d argue a Breton, a Parisian, a Burgundian, and a Norman are ethnically and culturally diverse.
So you view the 30 years war and the Taiping Rebellion as “the stone age” rather than “modern war”? I find that hard to accept.
Do you? I personally find people who ignore the nuances in what I wrote and then construct strawmen to argue with me by cherry picking examples I used in my original post and then demanding I accept a dichotomy that is ridiculously divorced from reality, and from anything I wrote, so that they can tell me they find the point they have created from the whole cloth hard to accept, hard to accept.
The history of warfare does not reduce to Stone Age wars and Modern Wars, in case you don’t follow what I am saying here. As I said in my poet that offended you so badly:
Obviously with stone age wars you are dealing with limited records, but the Aztecs seem to have eliminated a number of competitors. In more modern times, the Thirty Years war and the Taiping rebellion
Notice both that I addressed the stone age wars directly by what I consider an example and that I acknowledged that the examples you find offensive are ‘more modern’. More modern does not mean the same thing as Modern. WW II was a modern war. The Taiping Rebellion and the Thirty Years War were more modern than The Aztec conquests of their empire.
Not quite Stone Age but not a modern nations state either
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Kingdoms
I think you are probably wrong about that. How many pre-columbian tribes disappeared entirely into soup pots in what is now Latin America? We have no way of knowing but I am certain it is greater than zero.
Stone age tribes didn’t kill one another in near the proportions of modern nation states.
While it is impossible to say with certainty due to the lack of records from prehistory, modern equivalents to stone age tribes have been found to be much more warlike than their industrialized counterparts. For all the death and destruction of the 20th century, the wars ended up killing only a few percentages of the men of developed nations, while many primitive tribes see war-related death rates in excess of 20% of men.
The difficulty with evaluating conflict over millenia is the utter lack of reliable recordkeeping until very recently.
Nation-states, for example, did away with a lot of relatively dispersed, low-level conflict. But the number of peasants who were killed and starved because of those conflicts will never be known. More, or less than died due to the more leveraged conflict between nation-states that followed? I don’t think there’s any way to know.
Aside from the debate over whether there was an actual nation-state involved, the killing in India during the Mogul invasions and wars was pretty fucking epic. There’s also the mountains of skulls piled up by the Mongols, the periodic mass slaughters during various Chinese imperial conflicts, etc.
I agree and then we can all ride unicorns to prevent fossil fuel usage
Bernie Sanders
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Abortion is a constitutional right – not a privilege for those who can afford it.
A Ferrari is a constitutional right….
A mansion is a constitutional right…
Fillet mignon is a constitutional right…
Ahem. Not even getting into the part about Abortion being a constitutional right, this understanding of rights neccesarily implies, that anyone who wants a Gun has a right to have the government pay for it. Anyone who want’s to speak has the right for the government to pay for them to have a platform to do so. Anyone who wants to drive deserves the government to pay to buy them one.
And just because the government is buying, they can’t tell you what type of gun you can purchase. Any limitation is an infringement!
/abortion activists
you cannot equate a vital necessity with a luxury. this is why no one takes libertarians seriously.
Which is the vital necessity?
A list of vital necessities: food shelter tits healthcare anal abortion blowjobs housing jobs
So, you don’t think filet mignon is a necessity? That’s evil
Now do gun ownership, Bernie, which unlike abortion, is an actual enumerated right.
I only looked at a bernie tweet once and was dismayed by the utter lack of trolls. Does this mean he isn’t worth the effort and a majority agree with him?
No, people who criticize him get banned for hate speech.
Lol.
Scroll down to most common occupations per dem donor
https://www.waldrn.com/candidate-support-by-occupation-in-the-2020-democratic-primary/
Flight attendants for Buttigeg, Pizza delivery drivers for Yang. “Costume attendants” for Harris, whatever the fuck those are. Judges for Biden.
Librarians for Warren….
Just let that sink in
Isn’t SF a librarian? It would explain a few things.
No, he is more specialized than that.
A bibliographic archivist?
Keeper of the Voynich Manuscript?
OK. But does he associate with librarians in his work, because being surrounded by Warren-supporting librarians would shed light on the source of his muse for his “coven” works.
Elizabeth Warren
✔@ewarren
Pearl Harbor. Pensacola. Not even our military bases are safe from gun violence. I’m heartsick for the victims and their families. We must end this epidemic and protect the lives of our service members. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/juliareinstein/pensacola-naval-air-station-shooting …
Don’t military bases function like small towns where only the cops are armed?
Yep. The non-cops are all unarmed.
After the mendacity we have seen from the Dems over this impeachment the kind of lying she is up to seems weak tea.
Yes – Only MP’s and people on a specific types of guard duty (guarding and armory for example) have loaded weapons – other than at the firing ranges.
And live ammo is somewhat to tightly controlled coming off a range.
Yes. And the PH shooter used his issued service weapon and ammo, and was part of his duty to be armed on post (as part of his watch, if I understand it correctly).
Lizzie – Does it make you sad that the shooting was committed by a Muslim foreign national? Does it make you want to ban them?
So it’s workplace violence, not terrorism.
Not even our military bases are safe from gun violence.
No fighting in the War Room, eh, Lizzie?
This applies to all countries: There are two Americas in the same place. The first is the people and the culture and all they have built. The second is the govt apparatus. The second one sees the first as cattle. The first operates culturally and economically in a post-industrial and enlightened manner. It is productive and vibrant. The second operates economically in a primitive, feudal manner. Culturally it is calcified. It produces nothing, surviving by looting the first so it can never change and cannot survive on its own. In order to keep its hold over the first it must constantly weaken the first. It constantly hammers at the first. Importing other looters to be allies is one of its most powerful weapons.
Fuck multiculturalism. Fuck open borders.
Put me in charge of immigration and two things would happen: 1) the country would grow stronger as talent, skill and ethical people would flood in. 2) the deep staters/collectivists/commie rat fuckers would rend their garments and scream until the sky fell.
Can I vote for Suthen instead of Biff or Ozy?
?
The importation of allied looters is an interesting way of describing that phenomenon.
Suthen, if I can ever get my act in gear I’ll do a report on a book I’m currently reading: Bertrand de Jouvenel’s On Power. So far it’s a bit on the difficult side but it has some thoughts about the mystique of government you might agree with.
Ah, back to my OA (Original Avatar) here on Glibs. Like slipping on an old pair of comfy shoes . . .
Much better, no offense. It just suits you.
I’m not sure either got quite to the heart of the matter. I certainly prefer an open society with a dominant culture which encourages assimilation.
Not forces of course.
As Ozymandias points out, assimilation is usually a2 way street. It seems to me that without assimilation, your culture would continue to diverge further and further apart until differences could no longer be peacefully adjudicated by the legal system. If our goal is peace and continued existence as a single political entity, assimilation is necessary. The existence of an open society is the medium under which this assimilation can occur (the water in your soup, which brings all ingredients into contact). You can certainly have a multicultural state, however that lasts only for as long as both sides exhibit true tolerance.
In a way you need aspects of both tolerance to multiple cultures (multiculturalism) and the drive as a society to incorporate everyone into society (assimilation). Without both forces in the right amounts you have a recipe for the violation of others’ rights.
I think you’ve captured the essence of my argument. As I noted above in response to HM, it’s not dependent upon the definition of a nation state. The point is that if you believe that the United States exists and has a right to, it implies a lot about what you think about how the world works. That a group of people can pledge their honor to a charter and bind people generations hence to it and if so, why that should be? There are huge cultural implications behind the US’ very existence and the “multicultural salad” analogy fails horribly because of the “bowl.”
You don’t get to come here and hold public stonings for women under the guise of multiculturalism. It has always, I understood, included the notion of cultural relativity, and that means it’s there is no right or wrong, it’s all just fashion, and pederasty is no big deal. Just ‘cultural norms.’ Sorry. Wildly wrong.
“pederasty is no big deal” -Ozymandias 2019. 😉
Sounds like the issue you have with multiculturalism is actually a problem with cultural relativism, though I can see how one can begin to associate the two.
You don’t get to come here and hold public stonings for women under the guise of multiculturalism. It has always, I understood, included the notion of cultural relativity, and that means it’s there is no right or wrong, it’s all just fashion, and pederasty is no big deal. Just ‘cultural norms.’
I think there is a lot of cultural relativism underlying much of the chatter about “multi-culturalism”, and cultural relativism has no answer to what you have described.
You can certainly have a multicultural
statesociety, however that lasts only for as long as both sides exhibit true tolerance.The complication, of course, is that many cultures are quite intolerant of outsiders.
I actually originally wrote society, but I’m not sure that two cultures adjacent too each other, even within the same state, are necessarily part of the same society.
I think you are correct here. They can be part of the same state, but I don’t think they can be part of the same society absent a really high level of crossover and assimilation.
Hmm. I need to think about the meaning expressed by “society”.
While the concept of nation-state may be appealing to some, it has never existed and will never exist. There will always be a many to many relationship between nations and states.
While we force kids to recite a pledge to be one nation, it will never happen. As long as our state remains a constitutional republic, that’s OK.
Think of your favorite style of food – French, Italian, Thai, Indian. Now imagine how bland life would be if you could only ever get one of those. Multiculturalism means you can walk down the street and pick up a set of tacos on one corner and sushi at the next. No matter how much you like burgers and fries, after a while it gets boring. Variety is the spice of life.
I dunno Biff. All of these food types are assimilated to some degree to reflect American palettes. I know some people who sneer at Chinese or Mexican restaurants in America as not being authentic. They are right, but I don’t get the constant disparagement. I think assimilation has vastly improved these cuisines but to each their own.
+1 Tacos AL Pastor.
I’d be interested in a discussion of multiculturalism, pro and con, where any reference to food was banned.
As I said above, just as teaching a cat to fetch does not make it a cat-dog, that the Japanese make Scotch does not make Japan a multicultural Japanese/Scottish society.
Nice point SSD a big pet peeve of mine as well.
SSD – I think that’s a fair point, and in hindsight I wish I had used a non-food reference. c’est la vie.
However, as to the underlying theme, I don’t think the “Americanization” of anything, be it food, music, or style of dress decouples it from it’s original cultural source. And I would disagree that these cuisines have been “assimilated”. I would suggest they were more hybridized, or if you wanna use the latest lingo, it’s “fusion”
True multiculturalism has an ingrained respect for other cultures where supremacy of one culture over another isn’t needed.
So, honor killings/male pedophilia/clitorectomies/goat fucking/etc. v individualism/freedom of conscience/individual responsibility and agency – same same?
I think the problem is that the whole concept of multiculturalism with distinct small self-sustaining entities is largely a myth. No country really exists that way, except for artificial nations like Belgium or unstable states. There is always a larger generalized culture otherwise the entire political system wouldn’t exist to begin with. Switzerland has largely decentralized government with a weaker central authority within a confederacy, but that itself is part of their culture.
Again, within the concept of a nation state are built cultural touchstones that either you buy into or you’re an invader, I think. If someone can come to the US with the intention (in their heart) of turning it into something more like wherever they came from…. That’s not a part of the ‘multiculturalism’ salad notion that I can buy. At the heart of such a notion is a predicate that the US has no right to preserve notions that are in the Constitution. I mean, it really does run counter to the very notions of a nation state with a Charter. If we have to ‘amend’ or ‘bend’ or destroy that charter because some imported cultural norms now feel those notions are “passe” – we’re now also clearly out of the realm of “inalienable” rights. We’ve decided by default they’re alieanable as fuck.
And to me this is the crux of the matter. I want to see the values enshrined in that Charter preserved. If that can be done while allowing other cultures to coexist in our country I am fine with that, but I am skeptical.
I work with a good-sized cohort of people (Engineer-types) who have gained American citizenship. Very smart and experienced folks.
Mostly it’s something like a Mexican or Canadian who’s lived here a long time and does the citizenship thing. They do the process and at some point (I think) in there they say something pledging allegiance to the Constitution.
Almost all are quite happy to tell you they despise it. They were never truthful regarding their oath. This is a problem. Not sure the recourse. But (shorthand version) preserving liberty ain’t happening if we’re covered over with liberty-haters. Home-grown ones are problematic enough.
“Almost all are quite happy to tell you they despise it”
What a bunch of shit stains. “Individual rights- I’ll pass on that, bigot”
I’ve heard this before as well.
All I can ever think is, why are you here then? The society and the laws of your home are so clearly better, why did you move here, far from your family and everything you knew and love?
And the response is probably “jobs” without a hint of considering why the American economy is so much stronger than their home country.
I grew-up around immigrants and they all had digs against American culture, but I don’t remember many bemoaning the liberties afforded them in the US. That might have been because many of those immigrants were immigrants from Eastern Europe, then dominated by the Soviets, and Ireland. Nothing makes me more than a flag waving nationalist quite like disparaging the US Constitution, which is still superior to every governing document in the world.
All I can ever think is, why are you here then?
To get overpaid by stupid Americans?
Yeah, but that just goes to why is it we can afford to ‘ overpay’ them, as TGA points out.
Because they want what we have got but don’t want to do what we did to get it. They were raised in a different culture and taught in their formative years to hate what we stand for. In a way it is stupidity but completely unsurprising.
Results are not accidents, but envy blinds them to that.
I wonder what you mean by taught to hate what we stand for. In a way it is true, though certainly in most cases had little to do with the USA and more to do with what is acceptable and valued in their society. Then again, most Americans aren’t exactly liberty lovers themselves. My immigrant wife is thinking of fleeing new York because it is too authoritarian.
I’ve worked with many engineers that were naturalized citizens from all over the world. I’ve never heard a comment like this.
Naturalized citizens take the Oath of Allegiance at the naturalization ceremony not the Pledge of Allegiance. I’m a naturalized US citizen and know plenty of people born outside of the United States. Other the usual controversy of saying “under God” and “so help me God,” I’ve never heard any strong opinion about either.