For health reasons that I won’t bore you with, the Dean household has been on a dietary journey that has taken us through low-carb, keto, and paleo, all of which share an aversion to sugar. Sadly, sugar is a fundamental ingredient in a great many cocktails. Being strict on sugar will take a lot of traditional cocktails off the table. Now, I’m not going to take that lying down, so I have rolled up my sleeves and done the hard work of testing many low- or no-sugar cocktail recipes. Strictly for scientific purposes, of course.
Fruit juice: Lemon, lime, grapefruit, and orange juice have between maybe one gram (lemons and limes) to 2.5 grams (orange juice) of sugar per ounce . There is no substitute for fruit juice, and so we just take the (small) sugar hit on fruit juice.
Liqueurs: Some liqueurs are sweet, but good luck finding the sugar content for them. If you are seriously avoiding sugar, I think more than a small dose (1/3 of an ounce?) of sweet liqueur like Grand Marnier, Drambuie or Amaretto is going to deliver more sugar than you want. This presents a particular problem for this margarita fan, as orange liqueurs are pretty damn sweet and I don’t think you can make a margarita without a decent dose.
Soft Drinks: Sadly, my real sugar Mexican Cokes are verboten, as are full-sugar soft drinks of any kind. The good news is, there are some pretty damn good sugarless or low(ish) sugar soft drinks out there. The Zevia branded cola isn’t bad at all, but for sugar-free colas we prefer the Blue Sky cola. For ginger beer, we have found that the sugar-free Cock and Bull is excellent. There doesn’t seem to be a sugar-free tonic water, but the Q Tonic Light is an excellent low-sugar option, but still delivers 8 grams of sugar.
Sweeteners: Sugar and simple syrup are right out, which leaves you with the myriad of substitutes, none of which are entirely satisfactory. In our experience, stevia drops are the best substitute for a keto cocktail; you’ll have to experiment to find the right level for you, but we settled on about 1 – 2 drops per ounce of drink (liquor, mixers, and all), with an extra splash of water. If the cocktail has lemon or lime, you might want a drop or two more stevia to offset the sour fruit juice.
You have some options if you are willing to tolerate some sugar but want a low-glycemic sweetener. Honey and agave nectar aren’t on that list, despite the claim of some sellers that agave nectar is low-glycemic. Agave nectar is basically the same as honey, as near as I can tell. Warning: there are a number of alternative sweeteners out there, some of which you may not like the taste of, and some of which your digestive tract may object to. Be prepared to do some experimentation.
The two low-glycemic sweeteners that seem to work the best are yacon syrup and Dolcedi, an apple-derived sweetener. The Dolcedi is clear, has a very clean taste, and comes close to the right mouthfeel. Yacon syrup is dark, has more of a molasses flavor, and also has a good mouthfeel. These are spendy, but the good news is you should be able to use around half as much, give or take, compared to simple syrup.
We have noticed something else, as well: Since really cutting down on sugar, a lot, we are “resensitized” to sweet flavors – it takes less sweetener for things to taste sweet enough/not too sweet.
With this in hand, you should be able to take a fair amount of sugar out of your cocktails. Probably the highest-sugar cocktail still on our menu is Margaritas (made with tequila, Salerno, lime juice, and yacon syrup or Dolcedi).
But what’s an R C Dean post without a cocktail recipe or two?
Barrel-Aged Old Fashioned
Your typical old-fashioned has a dose of simple syrup (often one part simple syrup to two parts booze). This recipe is kind of cheating, because it relies on home barrel-aged rye to provide the sweetness.
- 3 oz. Barrel-Aged Bulleit Rye
- 6 dashes Angostura Bitters
- 3 dashes Peychaud’s Bitters
- 3 dashes Fee’s Aztec Chocolate Bitters
Stir, pour over rocks.
A variation on this, if for some reason you don’t have any barrel-aged Bulleit rye on hand, is to add 1/3 oz of maple syrup. Which kinda blows the strict keto thing (you’re looking at 5 – 6 grams of sugar), but the maple flavor blends right in with the rest. And, of course, sweetens the drink. There are some low-glycemic maple syrup substitutes, but we weren’t all that impressed. You can also dose with the Dolcedi or yacon syrup if you need a little more sweetener
Keto Whiskey Sour
This is pretty much a straight substitution of stevia drops for simple syrup. The result is not as sweet and a little drier than a classic whiskey sour. Using stevia, there seems to be a limit; its fine to a point, and then, one drop too many makes it taste kinda weird.
- 3 oz. rye (or whatever your whiskey of choice is)
- 1 ¼ oz. lemon juice
- Splash of water
- 5 – 8 drops stevia
Shake over ice, pour over rocks. Again, if stevia isn’t your bag, you can try to the Dolcedi or yacon syrup.
Comments
286 responses to “Keto Cocktailing”
On this site, be careful how you pronounce “keto” so tht it is not confused with a certain Institute.
it would be a shame is someone Mises the mark.
Comebacks like that give me Reason to think that you have a Sowell.
Nishkasan……Nishkasan…..I got nothing. Oh well, they aren’t a libertarian institution anyway
They would spout any nonsense for a FEE
Paging Swiss!!!
He’ll be all like “settle down before Buckeye Institute a no pun policy.”
That’s right. I went there.
Punning is the keto his heart.
Joking aside, I am disappointed that you did not explicitly address the issue of whether or not alcohol is keto-friendly, so I will.
Alcohol has a less than zero glucose index. Metaolizing alcohol causes blood glucose to drop. See, for example, https://skinnychef.com/blog/does-alcohol-turn-to-sugar-in-your-body
Glycemic index, not glucose index and Metabolizing, not Metaolizing
Metalizing?
Metastasizing.
We will all try to survive your disappointment, and the crushing burden that brings.
Meow.
RC, do you really want the quinine? Why not use carbonated water instead of taking the sugar hit from Q Tonic Light?
How am I supposed to celebrate British imperialism over India with a gin and club soda ?
Club soda often contains other ingredients besides water and CO2. I know Scots who are willing to pollute their whisky with carbonated ginger ale and with carbonated Irn Bru. They also are willing to drink “Chilli and Ginger Gin with Ginger Ale.” Is gin with club soda such a stretch?
Do I look like I want malaria!?!
Yes, actually.
How am I supposed to judge unless you post a picture?
RC, do you really want the quinine?
I want the flavor which tonic water has and seltzer does not.
That explains it. Also, thanks for the article.
A good tonic water is worth the effort and expense, I find. Fever Tree does a light tonic that comes in around 6g of sugar. I’ve been pretty happy with their standard tonic, so that might be worth a shot.
I actually prefer a less sweet tonic. Have you tried making your own? The challenge I would think would be making a base syrup that doesn’t blow the keto aspect out of the water but still accomplishes what the syrup is supposed to accomplish. The middle ground is to buy a concentrate, which I do from time to time.
I could not find a concentrate that wasn’t sugar based, and there are a couple of them that I really like. That was my first foray into low or no sugar tonics. The Q was the result of my search for bottled tonic; I confess I didn’t try the Schweppes, because I just don’t like their regular tonic – too sweet, not enough of the tonic flavor.
News you can use! Thanks for the research. Mrs. TOK I have been low-carb (with varying amounts of strictness) for a few years now. We also find that after a while, your sensitivity to sweetness increases. Neither of us can finish a can of Coke by ourselves anymore, the sweetness is so overwhelming.
That happened when I merely switched to diet soda. Now, regular tastes like syrup and I can’t drink it. I didn’t change any other part of my diet, so it’s not general sugar sensitivity.
Gin and Schweppes diet tonic has never let me down.
Beam and Diet Pepsi similarly.
Or you can all stop being such pussies and just drink scotch neat.
Scotch? No thanks.
*pours Krupnik*
I usually drink my bourbon rocks. May throw in a little ginger beer if I want to slow down on the alcohol intake.
You’re supposed to leave those in the glass, not drink them.
I feel like I something to prove:)
I just am not a fan of Diet Coke, Pepsi or Schweppes. I don’t need to be as strict with my sugar, and Mrs. Dean doesn’t do G & Ts, so the Q Light hits the sweet spot.
Correction:
There doesn’t seem to be a sugar-free tonic water that I like,
Should have mentioned that there are some out there. I just think the Q is much superior, although it does have some sugar.
SP favored Diet Coke Cherry, but that seems to have disappeared. Now she mixes vodka with Cherry Coke Zero.
No, she absolutely doesn’t. Cherry Coke Zero no longer exists. It’s Cherry Coke Zero Sugar and it is disgusting. I’ve mostly been drinking cherry old fashioneds or margaritas lately, if not drinking wine or straight whiskey.
They murdered coke zero with a reformulation a few years back. I still drink it (cherry and regular), but it’s not as good as it was.
My margarita:
Ice
2oz good tequila
1oz st germaine (bit of sugar here)
squeezed lime to taste.
Enjoy. You can actually drink it without getting grossed out like a mix would do for you.
This is my version:
Ice2oz
good tequilaDon Julio 19421oz st germaine (bit of sugar here)squeezed lime to taste.I concur. Don Julio is too good to use as a mixer.
Try the original
Equal parts tequila and freshly squeezed lime juice in an ice filled shaker.
Shake.
Pour and drink.
Get drunk.
I don’t like super sweet drinks. Anything that has simple syrup and either lemon or lime, I just substitute Sprite zero for the simple syrup. Works for me.
Vodka and lime seltzer FTW!
Our summer drink it Tito’s and lime Perrier. Just need warm weather to show up in Michigan sometime soon.
*blinks*
*Tips hat to whichever Founder
We like True Lemon products for making mixers.
The crystallized fruit powders have virtually no sugar. Their lemonade powders have a little bit that we’ve deemed acceptable. Especially since you’re not drinking the whole bottle at a time.
meh just skip the sweeter. I have significant trouble sometimes convincind waiters to bring me unsweetened lemonade. No sugar? You want honey? No I don’t want honey. Lemon and sparkling water.
Barrel-Aged Bulleit Rye – is there a non barrel aged version?
Moonshine.
unsweetened lemonade
That lemonade part might be the problem. You want lemon water.
Reminds me of college when I’d go with my friends to a restaurant that was too pricey for me, “I’ll just take a glass of water with a slice of lemon.”
When I waited tables I would occasionally have customers that would ask fro an entire bowl of lemon slices for their water and then they would use all of the sugar on the table and ask for more.
You may not believe this, but people who aren’t willing to pay for lemonade don’t tip particularly well.
Noooo, you’re kidding, right?
You mean those street people that wanted a cup of hot water and ketchup weren’t big tippers either?
I just returned from the store with a bottle of Bulleit rye and it doesn’t say anything about barrel-aged.
Bulleit isn’t barrel aged at the store.
This recipe is kind of cheating, because it relies on home barrel-aged rye to provide the sweetness.
Click on the link in the original above for Dean’s adventures in barrel aging.
Oh right, I remember that. I like mine the way it is – I’d probably just fuck it up if I tried that.
Bulleit rye, for some reason, barrel-ages wonderfully at home. Better than any other rye I tried. It gets mellow, sweeter, picks up, to my palate, a little bit of a cherry flavor. Good enough to drink neat, really. Barrel-aging at home is really easy.
I could not get a tequila to barrel-age to a level comparable to Tres Amigos, and certainly not to Don Julio. The ROI just wasn’t there for tequila, but it absolutely is with Bulleit rye.
I drink it neat as-is. Does that make me a savage?
Barrel-Aged Bulleit Rye – is there a non barrel aged version?
What you buy is already barrel-aged. When I say barrel-aged, I mean home barrel-aged. And I actually say “home barrel-aged” with a link to my post on it.
i sort of missed that
The two problems I have with stevia are hunting through the stevia for options (thankfully still available) that do not combine stevia with something with a greater than zero glycemic index and stevia’s aftertaste. I have not yet found erythritol packaged/intended for sale for household use.
* Takes swig of tea with erythritol, stevia, raspberry juice, citric acid, malic acid, coffeefruit, white tea, vitamin C, and sodium citrate *
My wife had some that was packaged for home use. I dug around in the kitchen but I cant find it now. It is…or was…available.
Thank you for looking.
There are a billion options for pure erythritol, sucralose, etc on amazon.
There are a zillion sugarless sweeteners on the market. We tried a number of them, but everybody is going to have some they like better just because they all taste different, and some work for cooking but not cocktailing, etc.
This really started as a way to keep having our faves with low to no sugar. Its all about what jiggles your handle, though.
Was monk fruit sweetener among those you tried and did not like?
Yes. It disagreed with Mrs. Dean’s digestion.
Ah.
OT: SugarFree to the white courtesy phone please…
https://www.yahoo.com/news/cleaners-abandoned-foetus-blocking-planes-toilet-africa-094911270.html
Jesus
Wrong direction.
Solid work, RC. Thank ye.
JFC RC – the only two ingredients in a proper cocktail are already low carb. Whiskey and misanthropy both clock in a 0 and they are all you need.
Misery and Gin?
I think that’s a Merle song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNTWW1y1x0M
Arguably his best.
Roll call for Michiglibs. Which one of you is this?
https://wwjnewsradio.radio.com/articles/man-strips-naked-detroit-metro-airport-mcnamara-terminal
present! :shifty eyes::
/slowly closes blinds…
OT: I gotta gripe, again, about a yuge media peeve I have. Why IN CURRENT YEAR do press pool photographers’ cameras have to be so damn loud!? Ruining good pieces of audio! *Shakes fist at sky*
In all seriousness, a Tom Collins or Gibson are pretty low carb out the gate, and they are both my go-to cocktails if I’m drinking.
*looks at Pineapple Jarritos I just bought for weekend drinks, thinks, “enh maybe next weekend”*
I’ve been trying to go on a no grains, no processed sugar time-restricted feeding diet. So far, after a month I’m only down 5 lbs and am really cranky. I’m wondering whether it’s the low carbs, the low sugar, or the no breakfast/snacks that’s doing it to me. I’m thisclose to abandoning the time restricted part.
However, my wife says that she can see the difference (*skeptical eyes*), so I’ll stick with it a little longer.
My one major exception has been beer. I think I’ll instead experiment with some of these recipes.
I have tried to branch out my drinking game, I just really like beer the best. Every time I try bourbon neat, I end up just taking the rest as a shot to get it over with.
My strategy these days is to just occasionally scale it down to Miller Lite or Michelob. Sigh.
Which bourbons are you trying? And have you tried Irish whiskeys? They’re usually lighter in flavor and more accessible for entry level drinkers.
Well, EW and Jack because I don’t want to buy a $40 bottle and end up mixing it. I tried Jameson neat/rocks before too and didn’t like it.
Try Bulleit.
I don’t know what it is, but I can’t stand Bulleit bourbon. Their Rye is fine.
Evan Williams single barrel is excellent and reasonably priced.
Look for Larceny bourbon. Low-mid $20s and works well neat and as a mixer.
Jack is Tennessee Whiskey.
Legally bourbon.
FWIW: when I’m really pushing to lose weight, I also measure my waist and gut. I often see changes there before there is a major change in weight. Gives me some encouragement to persevere.
I would highly recomend getting off one of time-restricted feeding or low-carb for a week and see if they make you feel better. It could be one, it could be the other, or it could be an interaction effect.
Are you physically active? If you are active + low carb + time restrictive feeding, that’s not a shock that you’be be lethargic and grouchy all the time.
You could try getting in a few small, high-carb feedings through the day. I assume you are eating dinner, right? Maybe try some high-fiber, complex carbs for breakfast and lunch. Oatmeal, fruit, etc. Or if you want to stay low-carb, do protein shakes (protein more readily coverts to free energy than fat does.)
If you are physically active, I would suggest eating a bunch of simple carbs right after exercise. Just sugar-full gatoraide woud do it if the time-restricted feeding is good for your compliance but bad for your attitutude.
I wouldn’t skip breakfast and be careful getting too much protein.
https://sa.atkins.com/blog/can-too-much-protein-stall-your-results/
https://sci-fit.net/carbs-protein-ketosis-research/#Does_a_high_protein_diet_prevent_ketosis
Gluconeogensis from high protein consumption doesn’t knock you out of keto. That’s based on one very old outlier study that has failed to replicate over and over and over and over. Enjoy your steak.
^^^True from my anecdotal evidence.
I’ve been keto since 2016 and monitor it closely with the strips. At this point, I can’t imagine ever eating differently.
*shrug*
5 lbs in a month does seem rather low. I was just throwing it out there. Maybe he’s not even getting into ketosis with skewed macros.
You know I do!
I will lose 4-5 pounds in a week, but I’m either running 15-18 miles during that same time frame, or, like now, lifting weights 3x and mixing it up with 2-mile runs 3x week.
C’mon people! Get to work, we need to get those numbers up!
http://archive.is/uDBd1
It depends on you!
*shakes head at Q*
I can pretty much guarantee I’m not getting into ketosis. Natural sugars (fruits) are fair game for me. I may try changing things up a little bit by trading out some of the fruit for additional fat. In the past, fat has made me less cranky.
It’s also hard to tell whether the crankiness has a physiological source or whether it’s because I step on the scale each morning and curse the number.
30 years in September
Y’all are far more sophisticated drinkers than I am. Wife likes some kind of cocktail made with lemonade, cranberry and vodka. I just mix the vodka with whatever happens to be on the top shelf of the fridge.
OT: just heard a debate on the radio about reparations. The disparity in wealth between blacks and whites came up frequently and the cause of it, of course, is slavery. What was not mentioned is that blacks that have assimilated well do as well as whites. Those that resist assimilating do not. I guess that is forbidden to say.
Blacks were making steady gains in wealth up until the Great Society, then it stagnated/declined.
I wonder how that happened…
You sound like that racist, white-supremacist Thomas Sowell.
I have never been able to find anything to corroborate that he *actually* said that. I believe he would….but I’ve never seen it officially attributed.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Ns4qZA2-M7s/U12jUETQhCI/AAAAAAAAIik/foHz0YC8Ly4/s1600/lbjnword.png
From the book “Inside the White House” by Ronald Kessler.
How reliable that is, I don’t know, but this is the primary source.
I just mix the vodka with whatever happens to be on the top shelf of the fridge.
Vodka and whole milk?
And Pickle juice.
Its called a Kosher Russian.
I just laughed out loud as my wife was walking by my office. She looked in and rolled her eyes.
My nephew chases whiskey with pickle juice. Says the two tastes cancel each other out.
It’s called a pickle shooter. You can also make one with the juice from pickled Kielbasa called a pork driver.
Are we still talking about cocktails here?
I’ve always heard it as a “pickleback”. It’s divine. You can also do the juice from spicy pickled beans, and that’s pretty damn good, too.
Pepper vodka shot followed with a thick slice of dill pickle. Little bit of heaven there.
This is pretty good with a splash of cream. Not keto though.
https://www.craterlakespirits.com/crater-lake-hazelnut-espresso-vodka/
Regular White Russians are pretty meh to me.
ooh top shelf – look at Mr. Sophisticated here
Gun manufacturers must be held accountable for gun deaths.
For more on our comprehensive plan to end gun violence, go to http://ericswalwell.com/endgunviolence
I presume automotive manufacturers should be held accountable for every injury or death caused by a person driving through a crowd.
Eric Swalwell needs to be held accountable for all the brain cells his stupidity has killed around the country.
He is one of those people that is truly as stupid as he looks.
Who should be held accountable when Duke Nukem irradiates Tulsa?
He who pushed the button in response to that illegal order.
Game devs and publishers, of course.
There was some idiot on Steam forums a couple days ago building a long thread on how xe was being mistreated by Valve, publishers, and devs because prices in Eurotardia are higher than in the USA. And they should be lower because Europeons get taxed more and bad people in the USA make like 4X as much money. When people tried to point out xe’s misguided reasoning, xe told them they don’t know nuthin about no economic stuff. It was like we had Gulag Barbie on posting on Steam.
“I presume automotive manufacturers should be held accountable for every injury or death caused by a person driving through a crowd.”
Yes, and food companies and restaurants should be responsible for every case of obesity and Western diseases. Were do we stop? We don’t, it’s the proggy way!
Who else could we add to that list?
Pool installers,
Seismologists (yes I know Italy has done this)
Ship Builders,
Congressmen.
I have to give the guy credit, he is the only gun grabber dumb enough to be honest.
https://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-live/video/terry-ferguson-for-senate-2/2870444
Swalwell lost his genitals in a fire.
Hyperion guide to low carb drink:
*pours bourbon in glass, drinks*
Wait, we were talking cocktails…
*pours gin in glass with 2 ice cubes, drinks*
You could also look at the Dry Soda brands as well, all are under 20 grams of sugar for 12 ounces.
The low-sugar cherry is very tempting. *wish-listed*
The only ones I wasn’t a fan of were the lavender and cucumber. My favorites are the vanilla and the ginger.
I’m a simple guy: Gin & Tonic (with diet Canada Dry or Diet Canfield brand), or a Gimlet (Gin and Lime). Or beer, preferably dark or brown. Or wine – red for winter and fall, white for spring and summer.
I’ve been cutting down on the wine since I added an extra 10 pounds of weight over the winter. And the beer – only two a week. So gin it is.
I lost 60 lbs while drinking beer constantly, I mean when I’m not working. I should cut back on the beer, but I’ve kept the weight off for months now while drinking the stuff. I do walk/run 5 or more miles a day. I’d probably lose another 5 lbs if I cut way back on the beer, but don’t really need to. Now this winter might pose a problem if it gets really cold, but I doubt it, it just doesn’t get that cold here and I’d rather walk when it’s 40 than walking when it’s 90.
My cocktail hour drink is a sip of Jack No.7 followed by a sip of Coke Zero cherry flavor. Zero carbs.
Something I discovered a long time ago: use Midori in place of triplesec in margaritas. Really nice flavor. Unfortunately, I can’t drink margaritas anymore, they upset my stomach.
Never heard of doing that but I’m going to give that a try.
I can’t drink margaritas anymore
*Taps plays mournfully in the distance*
I am sorry for your loss, Hobbit.
Never giving up my margaritas! (Even if I’m washing down Rolaids with them)
Donation: Wife walked in and I asked her about the sweetener. I was mistaken. It was Stevia, I just misremembered.
She did have erythritol at one time. It was a 16oz bag and the brand is Now Foods. A quick search gave me this:
https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Foods-Erythritol-Natural-Sweetener/dp/B000Z978SS?th=1
Didn’t try that, although I think erythritol is one of the more agreeable sweeteners. My concern would be that it won’t dissolve – we had a couple three powdered sweeteners that just wouldn’t go into solution and were thus unsuitable for cocktails. Might be worth a try, though. I’m not crazy about stevia – to me its adequate as a zero-sugar sweetener, but really that’s about it.
Make a solution with some water and boil it, should disolve any sweetener. You can keep it pretty concentrated and put it in a dropper bottle.
Make a solution with some water and boil it, should disolve any sweetener.
Nope. Tried it with a few powdered ones (out of dozens on the market) and both times they dropped out of solution. I wasn’t really up for buying more to experiment with, and just settled on the stevia drops.
I’ll try when I get home tonight.
That’s the stuff we use.
I also like Sukrin Gold as a brown sugar replacement in baking.
Does it go into solution?
We don’t use it in cocktails. Though it should act just like sugar.
Thank you! And unlike some others I looked at, it does not have one or more of an additive that I don’t want in my sweetener. I will chalk it up to it being your wife and not you that this one is Non-GMO and Kosher which do not go with a Duck Dynasty like lifestyle.
My signature drink is vodka mixed with Diet Squirt. It goes down easy*
*like someone’s mom
I am also doing low carb. I have also found that just skipping breakfast once in a while does wonders. Once you get past the initial hunger pangs, it’s not too bad. I’ve made it 24 hours without eating several times lately.
The name Squirt always made me snicker. It is a little off-putting. Squirting is usually followed by bathing.
Same here. There’s no context where I’d combine eating or drinking and squirting.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7a/1e/4c/7a1e4c61421669d892c05e45332e12a0.jpg
https://archive.is/V1pzs/5da730172c38cdcf39d7c0172fe0b34b4d7c6f11.jpg
https://archive.is/xRW2M/d344eb4ca3049af3b09b3c8015529e841423e1c6.jpg
I think the first contestant is the strongest, myself.
When I saw “cocktailing” in the article title, I thought this would be some sort of porno post.
I was not disappointed.
MUH NARRATIVE
https://www.axios.com/immigration-ice-deportation-trump-obama-a72a0a44-540d-46bc-a671-cd65cf72f4b1.html
Something something concentration camps something something kids in cages
“Separating families”
No, ripping them apart.
My favorite Jack Handy quote;
“Nothing tears families apart like wild dogs.”
LOL
President calls off air strike when he learns that up to 150 Iranians could die. It’s not compassion, it’s indecision.
Worse. Than. Hitler.
Yesterday he was leading us into war, today he’s indecisive.
Maybe he read about our F-35s.
https://sandefur.typepad.com/freespace/2019/06/the-pharisaism-of-the-maryland-cross-case.html
From the top rope. Devistating. Remember, Timmy is an athiest…
The monument is to remind us of what those men did. The cross is in honor of the Christianity of those men. It isn’t a damned state sponsored church.
I don’t really know how you can string those last two sentences together and be logically consistant.
Acknowledging someone’s religious belief is not the same as sponsoring or even endorsing those beliefs.
I think Suthen is going on what was likely the original intent of the 1A’s ban on “establishment of religion” (haven’t researched it to confirm); namely having a state-sponsored religion (or its converse, a religion banned by the state). Notably, the Supreme Court building itself images of Moses and the Ten Commandments (although some claim that the iconic tablets with Roman numerals I – X are really a reference to the Bill of Rights).
The idea that there should be no religious symbolism of any kind on or paid for by government seems a relatively recent interpretation, but again, I have not really studied this.
There isn’t a single intent on the ban – it multi-purpose.
One is that there was a practice in GB/some colonies of raising taxes to pay for the construction/maintenence of a physical chuch and/or the salary of clergy (sometimes one, sometimes another, sometimes both.)
On is that there was a practice in GB/some colonies that said $ChristianDenomination shall be the official church of $Municipality, and erryone {Pick 1: must practice is, must not openly practice something else, must pay lip service to it, etc}
One is that there was a practice in Catholic territoris (e.g., France and Spain, Sometimes GB) where Catholic Bishops weilded powers of the State, but were selected and mostly beholden to the Pope not the King.
Various writers at the time of the passage of the BoR (and the Virginia constitution from which this clause is inspired) where concerned about all three, and I think that the concern was ranking in the order I have here but I don’t know for sure.
I go back and fourth on this one. I can see the argument that a religious symbol, paid for and maintained by the government is “an establishment of religion”,
although Congress has made no law to do it.I can also see an argument that banning religious symbols from public places is “prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
(again, Congress has made no law).So here is how I’d spit this hair. Why is the government in the monument business at all? If a private party wishes to pay for, erect and maintain a memorial on public land I think it’d meet both criteria in 1A. (so long as the approval process doesn’t take religion into account when approving/denying the petition)
On second thought, Congress has made a law if public funding is used. They appropriated money, by law. So scratch those parts.
Last paragraph stands.
That’s basically my point and my proposed solution, so I agree.
The monument in question was originally constructed and maintained by a private group for around 30 years. In the 1950’s the land and monument was purchased by the state and now sits in the middle of a public road.
Most of these same soldiers lie under crosses in a US owned cemetery in France. This is a monument to the men and their sacrifice. I am an atheist and see nothing wrong with the state maintaining this monument. There are true assaults on liberty by followers of both progressive and Socon religions. These are matters of concern to me, not this cross.
Jebus, that font and that font size. Almost unreadable, and I have a big computer screen.
OK, sure, but this seems like an attack on the Court’s reasoning as sinful reasoning, not as legally flawed reasoning.
I am curious, though, as to how you say “no crosses should be on government land or maintained by the government” without replacing all the tombstones in military cemeteries that are, or have, religious symbols.
I think it is an attack on the Christian ethics of the self-avowed Christian who argues that, and that its not a legal critique.
if the “you” was me and not Sandefur, I would like to see all religious monuments held or maintained by the government to be an unconstitutional exercise and ordered. That doesn’t mean that they have to bulldozed tomorrow. The Canadian courts, for example, usually give the government 6 months to fix a situation when a practice is found unconstitutional, and it doesn’t have to be a straight repeal.
Identification of and sale at public auction of any religious monument within [appropriate time frame] seems pretty reasonable.
if the “you” was me and not Sandefur
It was a rhetorical “you”. So you personally would replace all the tombstones in our military cemeteries? Over the objections of the families?
No, I would put any general monument (and associated land) up for public auction.
For individualized monuments like a tombstone, I would pass those directly to the person’s heir at no charge.
I wouldn’t call for the government to destroy or replace anything outside of situations where this is impossible (e.g., if a military base has a cross on the side of a filing cabinet full of top secret documents or something like this.)
I think the arguments for removing “in God we trust” on money or “under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance is a better argument than “the state is using a cross to mark the dead”.
Preface: I agree with the point the author is making. He’s dead on.
However, the issue is that politics/policy is the art of the possible. You might say “Q, the court is not a political nor policy making entity!” Ideally, you’d be correct. However, due to our ever expanding executive and ever more impotent congress, the judiciary has become a de facto legislative body whether we like it or not. Had the court taken the (correct) course and provided religious context and reasoning to the decision, it either would not have succeeded or would have opened the door to never-ending assaults by militant atheist groups to monuments all over the country.
By castrating the atheists’ primary argument for removing the monuments (they are explicit religious symbols) the court has provided a backstop precedent against future lawsuits.
TL;DR – I don’t like it any more than you do, but the punchline is that the monument stays regardless of the bullshit reasoning from some court douchebags.
They could have more easily said “Going forward, no religious symbols on government property. For existing symbols [different rule],” whatever different rule is, including grandfathering them in.
I don’t see how you can say that the Constitution prohibits religious symbols on government property, except all the ones that are already there. From a jurisprudential perspective, its either allowed or its not, and there’s no principled reason (and the law is supposed to be principled) for grandfathering.
We could make an argument that it has historic significance.
My point, not terribly clear, was that they are already de-facto grandfathering in via the back door. They are saying “Oh, these old crosses, yeah they don’t have anything to do with Christ, so they stay.” That doesn’t apply to new stuff going forward because its not old.
Ergo, defacto grandfathering. But too pussy to say it clearly.
“My point, not terribly clear, was that they are already de-facto grandfathering in via the back door.”
That’s a fair point
You’re never going to become a grandfather through the back door.
Q, I was raised Catholic. I’m not even convinced we should be naked when we are makin babies.
+1 Hasidic sheet with a hole
The crux of the matter is that the cross has been standing for nearly a century and to ask for its removal now would not be a neutral stance, but would instead be an explicit attempt to show disfavor toward Christian beliefs.
A lot of people get hung-up on the “separation of church and state” so much that they forget that it’s mentioned literally never in the US Constitution. However, religious bias is explicitly forbidden in multiple instances (within the text of the Constitution and within the Bill of Rights).
This is just a really really bad example of the state endorsing religion.
The state is still taking money out of the pockets of non-Christians for the maintence expenses of a cross. Halting this pocket-picking isn’t showing disfavor. Pulling a bulldozer up to the monument with a “SUCK IT XTIAN SCUM” to knock it down would show disfavor. Divesting the monument and land from government hands to private hands isn’t showing disfavor.
Pulling a bulldozer up to the monument with a “SUCK IT XTIAN SCUM” to knock it down would show disfavor.
I’m not sure the sign on the bulldozer really matters, so much as the bulldozer itself.
If its the (overt) motivation for removing the cross that matters, shouldn’t the motivation for putting the cross there in the first place matter also? Was it erected to “establish the Christian religion”, or to commemmorate the men on the cross?
From my understanding, the state wouldn’t divest the land. It was originally on private land and then taken over by the state. I may be wrong there, though.
But, it seems like your argument boils down to no government support for any religious institution or religious imagery. Which would mean no Christmas tree or menorah or whatever on public land (even if it is a temporary display). That’s called France. And that would require the government to be explicitly antagonistic toward religion, which, again, is in violation of multiple parts of the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Not to mention that it would require a dramatic expansion of government, since the government could no longer contract with religious groups to perform social services rather than the government bureaucracy. Often these services are conducted with little to no cost to the government (such as refugee resettlement). You should ask a Muslim in France how well their system works out.
I’d probably be more in agreement with you if it had to do with removing “in god we trust” on money or eliminating “under god” in the pledge of allegiance. I just think this example is why too expansive and likely unconstitutional, unless we just start ignoring all the passages in the Constitution and Bill of Rights that restricts the government from showing religious disfavor. Which, to be fair, a growing number of people do want to just ignore all those clauses.
This is bordering on insensible.
I assume you know about Trinity Lutheran vs Missouri, right? That’s a very reasonable, very workable standard. Government can *and must* treat religeous institutions on a level playing field with non-religeious institutions for non-religeous matters.
Nothing I’m suggesting would change that or is logically incompatable with that.
In fact, its partly based on my experience volunteering at a Catholic food shelf that received government funding. When we were handing out food, it was drilled into us that we hand out food to anyone and every one and we do zero prosteletizing. But there was a priest sitting off to the side with a sign that said “Prayers and Discussions Available Here.”
And yes, we should get rid of “In God We Trust” and “Under God,” which would happen under my proposal.
Then maybe I just misunderstood what you are proposing
“This is just a really really bad example of the state endorsing religion.”
I think it is the same strategy as championing poor examples of police violence. It is calculated to cause maximum divisiveness.
I never got it. I am as solid an atheist as there can be but I am not offended by others beliefs. I have never felt the urge to attack Christianity. In fact, just the opposite. I don’t believe in the supernatural parts of it but I do acknowledge whaat the religion has contributed to our culture. Most of the ideas and values that have enabled us to become the greatest culture in history are rooted in Christianity.
The supernatural parts of all religions are the most ridiculous parts. I’m not very religious, but even religions that I don’t particularly care for I don’t feel hostility toward them.
I understand the argument of not wanting such iconography on public lands, but that is a big part of what allows the US to have a pluralistic society. If we start restricting religious content on public lands then why aren’t we restricting philosophical ideas on public lands? It’s just a bizarre place to draw the line and it is completely foreign to the American tradition. That’s more a product of the European Enlightenment and it hasn’t worked out too well for them.
*runs to the bar fridge*
Dude, there’s lots of sugar free tonics.
This is what’s in my fridge
See my correction above.
Saw it after I posted
Hey guys. To everyone (IT WAS ALL OF YOU *GLARES MENACINGLY*) it was about 95 today. It was about 95 three months ago. It’ll be about 95 in three months. I have become and A/C (oh, lord I actually say air-con now…) freak.
I’m working this new gig and I’m on a .probationary period. Working from home is great but it’s hard to get all the orders synced up in such a way that I complete as many as I need to per month while also attempting to schedule weekend time off with Lady, who fucking deTESTS her new teaching gig. She’s gonna bounce ASAP.
This new life for us here is an interesting transition. We have an awesome apartment and live in a cool area and shit is cheap, but jeez we have no money and we only get paid once a month.
Found a dealer in like two days. He runs a street food stall and is cool as fuck. So at least I get to wind down with a bowl.
Not much of this is too important, but with my schedule all I’ve been able to do is lurk.
Go Cubs. Carthage must be destroyed.
Hey man, you’re the one who wanted to live in SE Asia.
Glad everything’s going well.
OH, Q. You’d be so happy here. I live in the foreigner/tourist district and tons of tourists are out every day. And since their on vacation they’re wearing their finest. And it’s so…so…..hot here.
*Swoons*
Do you have a guestroom?
About a minute up the road is one for about $10 a night. It’s right next to a 24/hour massage parlor. I went there once. It was very hard to say no.
OK, see you in about 24-36 hours.
“Carthage must be destroyed.”
No disagreement there. We should probably salt the earth too, just to be sure nothing grows there again.
President calls off air strike when he learns that up to 150 Iranians could die.
Good god, y’all!
If he won’t kill Iranians, there’s no telling who else he wouldn’t kill! The man must be stopped!
Where are the “respectable Republicans” who would never hesitate to bomb Iran? Where have all the John McCains gone? Where is the Weekly Standard? I don’t want to live in a country that doesn’t respect our country’s natural right to kill foreigners overseas at will.
*cries in cosmo*
If you can’t count on Lindsey Graham, who can you count on?
Poor Scarlet O’Hara
https://imggra.com/media/1958049229978761968
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztZI2aLQ9Sw
I cant even imagine the shit-mess we would be in had The Hildebeast won. We really did dodge a bullet there.
Y’all don’t get too happy, someone may talk him into it yet. This is a good sign if true though.
After all the Americans he kills on a daily basis, this only proves that he cares far more about foreigners than his own citizens!
In fact, all those Iranians that he didn’t kill will only increase his bloodlust for American women, children, POC, stump-people and Canadian transplants!
Where were they intending to strike that an estimated 150 people would be killed? And is that civilians, military or both?
I’d think you would at most only attack the hardware at the installation that fired the missile that took out the drone.
“Where were they intending to strike that an estimated 150 people would be killed?”
Obviously a school for disabled cancer kids. Who else would Trump want to kill?
Trump: “150 casualties? Let’s call this off. Find me some place with bigger, huger casualties.
The classiest casualties.
Fever Tree light tonic is sweetened with naturally occurring fruit sugars. It’s not sugar free, but is lower calorie and tastes very good in my opinion.
I’ve been meaning to try it, but its not easy to find around me. I think it may have a tad more sugar than the Q light. I would expect its good, as Fever Tree (and Q) are both much superior to Schweppes, IMO.
Funny – I bought both Fever Tree and Q, expecting something special for my expensive gin, and disliked both of ’em.
The state is still taking money out of the pockets of non-Christians for the maintence expenses of a cross. Halting this pocket-picking isn’t showing disfavor. Pulling a bulldozer up to the monument with a “SUCK IT XTIAN SCUM” to knock it down would show disfavor. Divesting the monument and land from government hands to private hands isn’t showing disfavor.
I’m more affected (and outraged) by the idiotic nonsense being taught in government-run
schoolsindoctrination centers than I am by somebody mowing and edging around a lump of stone.I really don’t drink much at all – it is nearly impossible for me to get a buzz, much less get drunk, so what really is the point. But when I do drink, I go for the sugary boat drinks. My favorite is vodka, peach schnapps, coconut rum, and pineapple juice. Very good drink, and you can mix it with tons of alcohol without it being overly alcoholic in flavor. My usual mug contains about a pint of vodka, half a pint each of the schnapps and rum, and one of the little cans of pineapple juice.
I’ve been known to drink several of those lounging by the pool on a nice summer day.
But it really does suck not being able to get a buzz. I came home for a short break between stints in Afghanistan, and after spending most of my time off working on the new house, my wife offered to make me drinks while I relaxed by the pool the last couple of days before I had to go back. So I’m sitting out by the pool, drinking my boat drinks, enjoying life. Wife brings out the next drink, which was quite a bit different from the last couple.
“Why did you change from vodka to rum?”
“You drank all the vodka.”
“Wasn’t that a brand new bottle?”
“Yes.”
So, a fifth of vodka, a pint each of schnapps and Malibu, in about 4 hours. Not even tipsy, but I had one heck of a sugar rush.
That’s . . . incredible. I would have thought it scientifically impossible. I would have thought drinking nearly 24 ounces of ethanol in 4 hours would be fatal, as your BAC would be over .50 (according to an online BAC calculator, anyway)
No idea, but it happened. I’m a pretty big guy, but that doesn’t explain it all. But alcohol and prescription drugs don’t really do anything to me at all. A few years back I strained a muscle in my neck that made moving around complete agony. We went to the emergency room, and the doctors gave me a cocktail of pain killers, muscle relaxants, and anti-inflammatory drugs with the instruction to go see my normal doctor to get a longer term solution. Woke up the next morning with a little stiffness in the neck, but the pain was under control. So we go see the GP. My wife was explaining what the ER did (this was in Germany, so she was speaking in German with the doc). The doctor’s eyes got really big when she saw what they had given me, and asked my wife how she got me up into the office. My wife told her that I had driven us over, we found a parking space a few blocks over, and walked up the hill to her office. The doctor shook her head, and told my wife that if she had gotten an equivalent dosage for her body weight, she would likely have been knocked completely out for about 18 hours.
I famously couln’t get drunk on beer in college when my tollerance was high, but that’s because the weight of the beer was a rate-limiter on how fast I could drink. I drank boilermakers and 4 shots + 4 beers in an hour would get me a buzz.
But that much hard liquor that fast and I’m sure I’d be telling you I love you; where are those damn Wheat Thins?
http://factlets.com/the-world-record-for-alcohol-consumption-is-by/
Missing there is the timeframe, but if memory serves it was about one beer every 2.5 minutes.
Also, IHTH, if you wanna get wrecked and not notice just do jungle juice, but on a mini scale.
Tall glass half full with Everclear, fill with Kool-Aid and copious amounts of grenadine. Equivalent to 4-6 drinks depending on how tall the glass is.
My one time drinking that concoction, I had two of them in about 45 minutes, blacked out completely and woke up the next morning with an unbelievable hangover and two girls in my bed, neither of whom was attractive and no memory of what happened. Fortunately I did not catch an STD. I did not drink that anymore after that.
Given a man of your hepatic stature it might be just right.
This was during a college party at the house my roommate and I shared BTW… so the stain of shame is automatically wiped clean.
I’m past the point now where I want to deal with a hangover. Although I have seriously considered trying to find out exactly how much it would take to get me drunk. Unfortunately, I know a lot more about what won’t get me there:
1. 5 liters of beer in about 2.5 hours – found this out at the Volksfest in Stuttgart. Wife was in charge of handing out the beer tokens for her company’s table, with strict orders that nobody got more than 3 tokens each. She just gave the rest to me to drink/give away to random people. I was very popular that night, but no buzz. Lots of trips to the restroom though.
2. 8 whiskeys at a distillery in about an hour in Scotland, trying to find the particular one I wanted a full bottle of. Ended up buying a bottle of a 12 year old that was finished for a year in a German wine barrel.
3. 9 pints of guinness in about an hour and a half. Playing pool in a pub in London, winner gets a pint. I think they were just trying to get the American drunk. They failed…
“yes, obviously clueless coworker, I’m happy to have a meeting with you startinb at 3pm your time, 5pm my time”
*sigh*
On a Friday!?! That’s an NAP violation.
“I have to pick up my duaghter from day care at that time as they close at COB every day. Is this urgent enough that I should find alternative child care so we can do this at your proposed time?”
I wish I could do that. Unfortunately I’m the one putting the time pressure on the project. Not so much time pressure that Friday evening meetings become necessary, though.
I have offices and vendors worldwide. I set up my calendar to show me as busy during lunch and outside of normal business hours. It keeps folks in Europe, India, and California from driving me insane.
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/uk-court-orders-forced-abortion-for-disabled-woman-34728
“UK court orders forced abortion for disabled woman”
FTA:
“I am acutely conscious of the fact that for the State to order a woman to have a termination where it appears that she doesn’t want it is an immense intrusion,” said Justice Nathalie Lieven in her ruling in the Court of Protection, June 21.
“I have to operate in [her] best interests, not on society’s views of termination,” Lieven explained, arguing that her decision is in the best interest of the woman.
The Court of Protection handles cases involving individuals judged to lack the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves.
The woman, who cannot been publicly identified, has been described as “in her twenties,” and is under the care of an NHS trust, part of the UK’s National Health Service.
Doctors at the trust wished to abort her pregnancy and argued that, due to her diminished mental capacity, the abortion would be less traumatic for the woman than either giving birth or being eventually separated from the child.
The woman’s mother made clear to doctors and the court that she would assume care of her grandchild.”
If the UK is a liberal nation then China is the most liberal nation in the world. This ruling is basically Bell revisited except this time they were cautious enough to not say “two generations of imbecile is enough”
I was wondering if that poor woman was also raped by someone pushed on her by the courts…
That’s a really good point. She is in the care of the state
Also, I should have added a trigger warning: Catholic News Agency
(Don’t try to make me defend other articles on that site, because I won’t)
That’s fine, but I can’t understand why are there so many pictures of alter boys on page 3?
I thought the name of the publication would have explained that?
JFC, the more I read of that article, the more is sounds like Buck v Bell. Buck was Scotch Irish. This young woman is Nigerian.
I’d need to reread Imbeciles, but I could have sworn they said the same thing about Buck.
“In order to ensure that the family could not reproduce, Carrie Buck’s sister Doris was also sterilized when she was hospitalized for appendicitis, although she was never informed of this sterilization. She later married and she and her husband attempted to have children; she did not discover the reason for their lack of success until 1980.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Buck
JFC.
I’ve probably mentioned this several times before, but about ten years ago Liberty Magazine had a really good article about how Nazis at Nuremburg used the Buck case to justify their eugenic policies against the mentally handicapped. According to the article, this spectacle shamed the American judiciary to conclude that forced sterilization actually did violate the US constitution.
I have never been able to find this article again on the Liberty Magazine website and I cannot find the hard copy that I use to have. It was a very revealing article.
Dispatches from Airstrip One.
Is it too late to abort Justice Nathalie Lieven? In her own best interest? That’s how this works, right? We don’t need to consider “society’s views of termination.”
Plot Twist: she works at NEAT.
Oops, make that N.I.C.E.
“The Court of Protection handles cases involving individuals judged to lack the mental capacity to make decisions for themselves”
HOW DARE THEY LET HER HAVE SEX
SEW UP HER VAGINA IMMEDIATELY
Funny how ‘progressive’ policies put into practice end up looking like barbarism.
“end up looking like Naziism”
FIFY.
Some discussion of Hong Kong the other day and I said they were fucked the minute the British gave them. up.
Looking at England now I wonder if it isn’t just a wash.
I am completely fed up with all efforts to edit history regardless of what is being edited and who wants to do the editing.
Your school is named after George Washington and he owned slaves, tough shit.
80 years ago your town honored men that died in a foreign war with an explicitly Christian symbol, tough shit.
Spending money to maintain public grounds with a war monument that happens to be a cross is not any rational way “establishing a state religion”.
Maybe they can get rid of all of the crosses and other symbology at Arlington next.
https://www.duffelblog.com/2014/06/atheist-crosses-lawsuit-military-cemetery/
(Note it’s duffelblog)
Exhume John McCain’s rotting corpse and dump it in the Atlantic first.
I understand the argument against it but I agree with you. And I’m not concerned that the government is spending public monies to build and maintain monuments to veterans. The military is a public institution and I don’t see a conflict with public monies spent to honor the sacrifices or accomplishments of its members. If the issue is that the memorial is a cross, I think the more relevant issue is that it’s a monument, and unless you believe the government should stop maintaining monuments it erects (which I don’t) then I don’t know what the remedy is short of knocking it down, which is not what anyone other than the American Humanist Association seems to be interested in. And they, frankly, don’t seem to have the purest motives.
Coincidentally, as I read the decision I see that this is one end of MD-450, aka Defense Highway, the terminus of which is just past the Naval Academy. It crosses the Severn, and on the far side of the bridge there is a WWII monument. No crosses, though.
Fuck. Squirrel.
Thanks for the timely article. Sitting in the sauna after lifting and I’m fucking fat.
I compensated for injury by upping my beer consumption. It worked!
Titos and soda for me I guess.
A ray of sunshine: a young lady here just got a respectable set of bolt ons. Not weird, just tasteful.
So there.
High quality bolt-ons are a testament to the amazing advances in medical science we’ve made.
The bleeding at the NRA continues. Chris Cox is “suspended” – whatever that means, and not by the Board.
hickok45 pulls his support.
Damn, hicock45 is a big one.
Sounds to me like he’s telling them to get their shit together and he’ll get back on the bandwagon.
just fire all the executives. the org’s already shackled with LaPierre’s golden parachute for another decade+.
I have never particularly liked the NRA, myself. But I’ve been to their firearms museum in Fairfax. That was neat.
I worry that this will be an opportunity to skin suit the NRA (more than it already has been).
wouldn’t that be a scalp for their trophy case. but the 2A crowd is militant. they’d dump it and join GOA en masse.
Over at Salon, I see this header for an article that I won’t bother to click through to.
Researchers say 8 hours of work a week is enough to feel fulfilled. So why won’t hustle culture die?
What is fucking wrong with these morons.
Magical thinking.
A week? It takes me an hour to get momentum going for the day.
Did they study how filled is your belly going to feel on what you can afford to eat on 8 hours a week of pay?
Good luck buying your thrice daily Starbucks fix on eight hours per week, lefties.
I think I can feel fulfilled on 0 hours of work a week, but my wife, kids, and the mortgage company might have something to say about that.
The article also states that the study found people that work full time aren’t less happy or fulfilled than their less worky counterparts which is good considering most people can’t eat on 8 hrs weekly pay unless they really like Ramen.
Only 1/3?
https://www.studyfinds.org/foodie-call-third-women-admit-dating-for-free-meal/
“admit”
Related study: 2/3 women lie about their dating habits.
RE: NRA implosion.
I’m with many here in that the NRA’s conciliatory stance toward gun-grabbers is rage-inducing.
However, I’ve said it here before, 2A needs a strong, centrally consolidated support/lobbying group. Because of their collectivist tendencies, Lefties are natural organizers and without a cohesive vehicle from which to push back, 2A will get run over roughshod.
I hope NRA get it together and becomes more hardline and principled because it only empowers the grabbers if 2A support gets atomized.
As the NRA stands now it sounds like they’re not only squishy, they’re corrupt as well. They need to clean house because, you’re right, they do serve a good purpose.
The Board had better dontheir jobs, replace the management, and keep the new guys on a tighter leash.